I'm glad everyone has explained vvhat's going on with Errigal. i thought it vvas a divverent dialect all together. (I htought he had a speech impediment of something). VVhyc an't vou go dtí an tsiopa and get vurselv a nevv kevvoard? Vis langvage is hard enouvh vvithovt that kind of stuvv. Send me you accovnt details and I'll buv vuov a new keyvhord.

Glad the moderator is moderating v vinally

FGB does say that go dtí is a subjunctive form, and that may be correct (I'm no expert), but I've heard another theory, which is that the tí in go dtí comes from the word tí meaning a marked spot, line, border, or the like, which can also be used in expressions like ar tí imeacht ("on the point of leaving"). If you think about it, that would make go dtí something like "up to the point of", which fits well with the idea of it often being seen as meaning going up to, but not necessarily into, a place. Not taking sides here - just thought I'd mention it.

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I'm not a native (or entirely fluent) speaker, so be sure to wait for confirmations/corrections, especially for tattoos.

That’s tempting, but structurally impossible.

Go ‘up until [noun]’ doesn’t cause eclipsis; go ‘until [verb]’ does; and go dtí is followed by the nominative (as would be expected of the noun of a verb), not the genitive (as would be expected if it were a compound preposition).

So there is little doubt that it is a verbal form, not a noun.

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Not a native speaker.

Always wait for at least three people to agree on a translation, especially if it’s for something permanent.

My translations are usually GU (Ulster Irish), unless CO (Standard Orthography) is requested.

I've heard that too, Caoimhín, and it makes more sense.

go2 in FGB would fit. Eclipses, meaning 4 is "as far as".

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

I suspected as much, and I thought that any expression using tí ("point/line") would likely require the genitive after it if it were to be used to say "up to the point [of]".

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I'm not a native (or entirely fluent) speaker, so be sure to wait for confirmations/corrections, especially for tattoos.

I actually meant I agree with you, Caoimhín, though I see now it could be taken both ways.

The statement that go doesn't eclipse is incorrect (see above).

However, the genitive _would_ be expected. Is the fact that imeacht isn't in the genitive in ar tí imeacht because verbal nouns are a special case? I notice ar a thí etc., under tí, so it does appear to take the genitive normally.

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

There are many go's in Irish:

- the verbal particle, that eclipses
- the preposition that means "to", that prefixes h to vowels and doesn't change consonants
- the preposition that means "with" (it is only used in set phrases), that eclipses

I've learnt in the university, that "go dti" is "until... may come", and then, that "ti" is a form of the verb "to come", and "go" here is the verbal particle.

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

[quote=
I guess they don't teach "chun" simply because it's followed by the genitive and because they believe learners are yoo stupid to learn it
[/quote]

A Lughaidh,
This is not a criticism, just a thought or even an observation, maybe even the start of a debate of how Irish should be taught?

If you have a class of 4 to 7 year old children, who are learning Irish as a second language - "go dtí" is easier for them to learn, in the beginning, because it doesn't take the genitive case. msh - Chuaigh mé go dtí an chathair. Sighs, even cathair versus an chathair is a little difficult to grasp at that age. They think the teacher has spelled the word "wrong".

Teaching them "chuig/chun na cathrach" at the same time, or even a few months later would really confuse them, dar liom fhéin.

If you 'tut' at something that's said that is inaccurate or make a face that says -'no that's not right' - you sap that little person's confidence. I am not condoning inaccurate speech in the language but to get a child to speak with a sense of fluency you have to overlook some inaccuracies while gently suggesting the right form of the construction of the sentence or verb.

I suppose learning a language is like competing in a marathon and not a sprint race - it takes time.

Given that you give time to learn the language, there's the other issue of the passion for learning the language. Some people have that passion - like people who come to this forum and and others like it. The obverse is the child/young adult of 12 up to 18 who feels Irish is an subject imposed on them in the Irish Educational System. (Most children have no problems learning Irish up to 2nd Class.) Hatred of a language will not endear you to it and is one way of making sure you don't or won't learn it. B'fhéidir go mbeadh sé níos fearr an Ghaeilge a chur faoi cheilt!!!

Other adults send their children to Gaelscoileanna, so they will be fluent in the language, and there's no doubt that they will. It was interesting to note while watching "The Front Line" presented by Pat Kenny on RTE 1, Monday 3rd of October, Secondary Gaelsoileanna came out on top as the non fee paying schools in Ireland.

It would appear so—but that takes the accusative. In Modern Irish, it’s limited to a very few set expressions, but it was more versatile in Old and Middle Irish, where it was quite clearly followed by the accusative.

Go dtí, on the other hand, has always, since it first appeared (which I think was some time in Middle Irish, but I’m not actually sure), been used with the nominative.

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Not a native speaker.

Always wait for at least three people to agree on a translation, especially if it’s for something permanent.

My translations are usually GU (Ulster Irish), unless CO (Standard Orthography) is requested.

You just need to tell them that you say "cathair" but "a' chathair".
Anyway at that age you might teach a language mainly with short sentences and songs etc, just oral things, and then it may be easier for them. Anyway young children learn all that very easily. They would quickly notice that you say "cathair", "an chathair" and "na cathrach" and that all these words are talking about towns. Native speakers learn their native language this way, by hearing it and by observing how words may change in different contexts.



then don't say anything, anyway the child will listen (hopefully) to what you say and he will copy what you say. If he hears you saying "na cathrach", the next time or later, he'll say it too.



and I hope they'll speak properly too: this depends on their teachers etc. If the children only hear good Irish, I guess they'll speak good Irish too (except if it's "cool" for them to speak badly, as in many Breton language schools ).
But anyway, for language acquisition, I trust much more families (if they speak native or native-like Irish, of course) than schools.

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne