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PostPosted: Sat 12 Jul 2014 11:26 am 
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Dear friends, I am an Italian learner and I would need ask a question about the pronunciation of Irish.
I have read that most Irish speakers don't use the pronunciation shown by the dictionaries giving the IPA transcription of the lárchanúint, but they stick to a particular dialect pronunciation.

I am using M. Ó Siadhail, Learning Irish, based on the Cois Fhairrge dialect, which gives the pronunciation of that area and spells words the way they are pronounced there. I mean, for example, that to go is /gˠelʲ/ (broad g, slender l) and is spelt goil, not dul. To drive is /'tˠumˠa:lʲ/, spelt tumáil, instead of tiomáin.
I wonder how people using a particular dialect, either in the Gaeltachtaí or in the Galltacht, for example using Cois Fhairrge/Conamara Irish, pronounce for ex. the words dul and tiomáin when they have to say them in a formal situation where standard Irish is expected or when they read them from a book: are they pronounced "the way they are written" -according to the phonetics of the used dialect, of course- [dolˠ] and ['tʲumɑ:nʲ] or are they pronounced as if they were written goil and tumáil (ceadúnas tiomála is the only thing I find written in Irish in Italy: would it be read as if it were ceadúnas tumála?)?
The same question arises for inflectional endings that in written Irish don't match with those in the local dialect: are they read, and pronounced in any formal use, "the way they are written"? Just one example: in Cois Fhairrge we were is bhí muid, so, when an Irish speaker using that pronounciation, even in the Galltacht, reads the word bhíomar, does he say /vʲi: mˠidʲ/ as if bhíomar were written bhí muid?

The issue causes a lot of confusion in me...
Go raibh míle maith agaibh uile!!!


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PostPosted: Sat 12 Jul 2014 4:24 pm 
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Unlike many other languages, the standardized form of Irish isn't considered more formal than any of the dialect forms. When people speak in formal situations, they use their own dialect (If you listen to the news on Raidió na Gaeltachta, you'll hear this).

As far as reading aloud goes, I have no experience of hearing people read something aloud in a dialect other than their own, but I would assume they'd read it as written, but with their own accent and pronunciation.

With singing, however, it's not unusual to use the pronunciation of the area from whence the song came (because if you don't, you often lose the rhyme).

Redwolf


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PostPosted: Sun 13 Jul 2014 2:05 pm 
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They must by times say things never heard in any dialect. Lughaidh has commented on this before

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PostPosted: Mon 21 Jul 2014 7:13 pm 
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Redwolf wrote:
Unlike many other languages, the standardized form of Irish isn't considered more formal than any of the dialect forms. When people speak in formal situations, they use their own dialect (If you listen to the news on Raidió na Gaeltachta, you'll hear this).

As far as reading aloud goes, I have no experience of hearing people read something aloud in a dialect other than their own, but I would assume they'd read it as written, but with their own accent and pronunciation.

With singing, however, it's not unusual to use the pronunciation of the area from whence the song came (because if you don't, you often lose the rhyme).

Redwolf

:yes:

Braoin was lamenting once that when he tries to read some texts aloud for the materials he records for us, he sometimes runs into stumbling blocks, especially when the text is written in an unfamilair dialect. It is hard to get words from another dialect to roll off the tongue midstream - a bit like codeswitching to another language midsentence, though not quite as extreme.

One that comes to mind, from my own experience, is de ghnáth for "usually". Logically this would be pronounced guh ghRAW(h) /gə ɣrɑ:(h)/ in Connemara - but people don't usually use that phrase there. They use go hiondúil guh HOON-dool /gə hu:Ndu:l´/ instead (which is much easier to pronounce and should be the standard word if sense prevailed. :LOL: )

But no, I don't think anyone usually substitutes "go hiondúil" where "de ghnáth" is written, instead they may stop for a microsecond (the first time around, at least) while they backform the standard pronunciation, then proceed to pronounce it (unnaturally for them) as jeh ghNAW /d´e ɣnɑ:(h)/ (which is probably totally "natural" in Munster. :rolleyes: :winkgrin: )

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Mon 21 Jul 2014 8:10 pm 
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Breandán wrote:
But no, I don't think anyone usually substitutes "go hiondúil" where "de ghnáth" is written, instead they may stop for a microsecond (the first time around, at least) while they backform the standard pronunciation, then proceed to pronounce it (unnaturally for them) as jeh ghNAW /d´e ɣnɑ:(h)/ (which is probably totally "natural" in Munster. )


That is so true. :yes:

One time there was one of those GN words on Forvo (I think it was "ghnó"), I had to ask somebody else to pronounce it as I just couldn't wrap my tongue around it.


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