What rule is being used here?

Saoirse · **Posted:** Sat 08 Sep 2012 5:02 pm

Séamus wrote:

Saoirse wrote:

Séamus wrote:

Thanks Breandán & Lughaidh. Was at a loss about the difference between /N/ and /n/.

Don't get them started on phonetics and phonemes and phonology and phonosaurus rexes.....! :twisted:

Yea ! Almost lost my teeth lookin for that "alveolar ridge"

That would be difficult to explain to a dentist! :mrgreen:

Lughaidh · **Joined:** Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 2436

Normally when pronouncing /N/ your tongue touches the back of your teeth (and the tips comes between the teeth) ; in /n/ it touches your alveolar ridge

Breandán · **Posted:** Sun 09 Sep 2012 2:38 am

Lughaidh wrote:

Normally when pronouncing /N/ your tongue touches the back of your teeth (and the tips comes between the teeth) ; in /n/ it touches your alveolar ridge

Technically, your tongue is still against the alveolar ridge in /N/ - just a different part of the tongue. You should be laying the tongue flat against the back of the teeth all the way from the alveolar ridge forward and also spread sideways so that the edges and tip of your tongue are beyond the teeth all the way around between the canines.

In /n/ only the tip touches the alveolar ridge (and where it touches is the same place on the alveolar ridge that middle of the tongue touches in /N/).

Incidentally, this distinction is being lost in the use of a (where we started) but is still important in the single versus double consonants. Many non-native speakers (and some younger native speakers under the influence of anglicised school Irish) pronounce baile /baL´ə/ BAAL-yuh as if it had the double "l", instead of baile /bal´ə/ BAAL-ih. It should sound almost like Bally (but with a short ih sound at the end not an ee sound)

Lughaidh · **Joined:** Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 2436

Quote:

Technically, your tongue is still against the alveolar ridge in /N/ - just a different part of the tongue. You should be laying the tongue flat against the back of the teeth all the way from the alveolar ridge forward and also spread sideways so that the edges and tip of your tongue are beyond the teeth all the way around between the canines.

In /n/ only the tip touches the alveolar ridge (and where it touches is the same place on the alveolar ridge that middle of the tongue touches in /N/).

I know that but I didn't explain clearly, and I didn't want to give too many details, so that I don't scare beginners :mrgreen:

(looks like you're not afraid of scaring them :darklaugh:

)

Redwolf · **Posted:** Sun 09 Sep 2012 4:46 am

Lughaidh wrote:

Quote:

Technically, your tongue is still against the alveolar ridge in /N/ - just a different part of the tongue. You should be laying the tongue flat against the back of the teeth all the way from the alveolar ridge forward and also spread sideways so that the edges and tip of your tongue are beyond the teeth all the way around between the canines.

In /n/ only the tip touches the alveolar ridge (and where it touches is the same place on the alveolar ridge that middle of the tongue touches in /N/).

I know that but I didn't explain clearly, and I didn't want to give too many details, so that I don't scare beginners :mrgreen:

(looks like you're not afraid of scaring them :darklaugh:

)

Ah, go ahead and scare 'em...they'll get over it!

An Lon Dubh · **Joined:** Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:08 pm **Posts:** 1313

Breandán and Lughaidh, I know that the Northern Dialects have the unlenited/double versions of l and n. However
I was wondering what the double versions of broad and slender r were. Would you happen to know when they died out?

Also the broad n (and l) in Munster seems like neither broad "nn" or "n" (respectively broad "ll" and "l") from the other dialects, as you actually place your tongue against the teeth.

Lughaidh · **Joined:** Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 2436

Quote:

I was wondering what the double versions of broad and slender r were. Would you happen to know when they died out?

Double broad is a trill
single broad is a tap of the tongue

double slender doesn't exist anymore (looks like -irr- is pronounced with a double broad)
single slender is the "normal sound" of slender r (it becomes a y-sound in certain cases in Gaoth Dobhair, especially between most vowels and at the end of words).
I don't know when the double slender r died out, and I'm not sure we can know...

wannaleanrirish · **Joined:** Fri 16 Mar 2012 6:23 pm **Posts:** 36

Redwolf wrote:

In case you don't know the rule, here it is:

"A" means "his" if:
It's followed by a word with a lenited consonant:

A charr = His car

It's followed by an unaltered vowel:

A anam = His soul

"A" means "her" if:

It's followed by a consonant that can be lenited, but isn't:

A carr = Her car

It's followed by a word beginning with a vowel that has had "h" prefixed:

A hanam = Her soul

"A" means "their" if it's followed by an eclipsed consonant:

A gcarr = Their car

It's followed by a vowel that has had "n-" prefixed:

A n-anam = Their souls

If the following word begins with an unlenitable consonant, the meaning of "a" must come from the context of the sentence:

A nuachtán = his/her/their newspaper, depending on context

Redwolf

Go raibh maith agat.

So, are they all the lentition rules in Irish or are they only the ones related to "a" ?

Anyone got a good source of all the rules? (if this is not all of them)

Lughaidh · **Joined:** Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 2436

Quote:

So, are they all the lentition rules in Irish or are they only the ones related to "a" ?

only those related to the possessive "a".
You'll find most rules here:

http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/lenition.htm

wannaleanrirish · **Joined:** Fri 16 Mar 2012 6:23 pm **Posts:** 36

go raibh maith agat

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