No, there's not a standard pronunciation, but there is a standard grammar, and there are people who are native speakers of grammatically standard Irish, even if they do have to either pick one dialect's pronunciation or mix and match pronunciation from various dialects. (I've met native speakers of both kinds, both of whom grew up in Dublin.)


Yes, the situation is different, but the basic premise is the same: having a standard language promotes unity and keeps the language from fragmenting—which is especially important for a small, endangered language. I'm not saying people should give up their local dialects if they have them; the standard should be in addition to the local dialects, not instead of them. But I disagree that the standard dialects of English, French and German "aren't really artificial". They are every bit as artificial as the Caighdeán Oifigiúil; the difference is just that (1) they're older, and (2) they're accepted by native speakers. There's a much bigger difference between the spoken dialect of Munich and standard written German than there is between the spoken dialect of West Muskerry and standard written Irish; the difference is just that Munich dialect speakers don't have the contempt for the standard dialect of their language that many West Muskerry dialect speakers have for the standard dialect of theirs. (But when the standard changes—as with the recent German spelling reform—then the contempt comes out. Loads of Germans flat-out reject the reformed spelling, with no more coherent reason than that it isn't what they were taught in school and they're not used to it.)

_________________

Aontaím go hiomlán leis sin! I don't see how one can choose a specific dialect for material or services that are supposed to serve the whole country. As far as literature is concerned, I think a healthy mix would involve people writing using their specific dialect, others using the standard. This has literally always been the case in English, for example. There's no need for this issue to divide or upset people, as long as everyone has the right to choose. Also, as far as children learning to write in their own dialects in school is concerned, I never learned to write in mine (in English) when I was at school in Belfast. But I'm perfectly capable of doing so if I need to.

Having said that, it's clear that the programme (exam) of Irish for native speakers in secondary schools is wholly inadequate. It's fundamentally absurd that they should be doing the same exam as their non-native-speaking peers, rather than being challenged in the same way all pupils are challenged in their study of English for example...

What you call unity is rather uniformisation, ie. replacing the native dialects by one single artificial one. Ie. impoverishing the language. The language is already fragmented, it always was. All languages are, and you can't do anything against that except setting up a dictatorship and punishing all those who don't speak in the standard language...



but if you only teach and publish standard Irish, native speakers will soon believe that it's better to speak like that (and some do believe it now!) and give up their dialect, or even give up Irish. There are some families in the Gaeltacht that stopped speaking Irish at home because their children "do enough Irish at school" etc. I knew a young girl from Gort a' Choirce who said she had difficulty with Irish at school. And Donegal Irish was her first language. So there's a problem...



standard German may be an artificial language created several centuries ago. But for English and French I don't think so. They aren't blends of dialects and historical stuff as standard Irish is.
By the way, in Germany as far as I know, people speak their dialect in everyday life and standard German in certain situations. So the dialects aren't in danger (not as much as Irish anyway). In Ireland, native speakers speak their dialect (and not standard Irish) and most non-native speakers usually speak standard Irish with some dialectal features. So it's different.

To me, the Irish dialects should keep being as they are now, and everything should be made for that. Because they represent the real native language of Ireland. And no natural language should die.

_________________
Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

I explicitly said the standard shouldn't replace the native dialects, but exist alongside them, the way standard German exists alongside the dialects.



I didn't say "only".



Standard French is determined by the Académie Française. That's pretty artificial.



Sure, but it doesn't have to be. There's no reason Irish couldn't reach the point where people use their native dialects in some situations and the standard in other situations.



But that excludes potential speakers who aren't from dialect areas. Should native speakers, or even fluent non-native speakers, from Dublin and Belfast be forbidden from speaking and writing in Irish just because they don't affiliate with one of the traditional dialects? Restricting Irish to the tiny percentage of the population who grew up in the Gaeltacht for the sake of romantic ideals of "purity" is what will kill the language.

_________________

but people can't really choose, simply because 95% of the learning stuff is in Standard Irish. For Connemara Irish, you have Learning Irish (but no dictionary). For Muskerry Irish, the old Teach Yourself (out of print) (but no good dictionary). For Kerry Irish, nothing. For Donegal Irish, nothing that would be in the real dialect. And no dictionary. That's your choice. If you want to learn a dialect, it's quite hard. It's possible, but it requires much work. Even in Gaeltacht courses I'm not even sure they teach the dialects as they are spoken by the local people...



I seldom saw any native speaker writing in his/her dialect. There are loads of things they don't know how to write because they've never seen them written. They either use a standard form instead, or they try to improvise some phonetical spelling... but they seldom spell them in the way they should be -- the Irish spelling is quite etymological and very few people have studied Irish etymology, Classical Irish etc.



will they survive, if only standard Irish is promoted and nothing is done to support the dialects and if they are never taught?



French speakers don't care about the Académie française. They even don't know what the Académie does. Yes, they know the Académie is making a dictionary -- that almost nobody uses, anyway it isn't finished and it progresses very slowly. And once it's finished it'll be out of date.



aye there's a reason, as far as I know, the number of Gaeltacht speakers is constantly decreasing. And the Gaeltacht dialects aren't really taught. And native speakers understand each others when speaking their dialect, so they don't need to speak standard Irish.



"purity" is rather a standard Irish thing, that's why they create so many new words while native speakers often use English words instead, and don't understand many of the new words.
By the way, I love the language as it is spoken by its natural speakers, that's all.
When you learn any language, you try to follow the model of native speakers speech. To me, Dublin and Belfast people should choose one Gaeltacht dialect. Btw many people from Belfast try to learn Donegal Irish because Donegal Irish is the closest dialect to the late Antrim dialect. They attend to Gaeltacht courses etc in Donegal.
What would kill the language is, as I said, promoting standard irish while not supporting the native dialects.
I'm sorry but if one day there's no Gaeltacht native speaker left, if all Irish speakers are non-native speakers who speak standard Irish, Irish will be in the same situation as Cornish today, ie. a dead language that has been revived. If the natural transmission of the language is interrupted, the situation becomes completely different.

_________________
Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

That's true.



We wouldn't care about the Coiste Téarmaíochta either if Irish was the first language of most Irish people.



We borrow English words and create our own out of them.




I agree


Leave Standard Irish for legalise or other similar uses.
Speak and teach the living language.

_________________
___________________________________________________________

It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.
___________________________________________________________

_________________
Táim ag foghlaim Gaelainn na Mumhan

Tá fáilte roim nach aon cheartú!
I am a learner. Any translations offered are practice and should not be used unless confirmed.

I think what is actually needed is a standard that properly respects the native dialects while also providing a vehicle for a common unified language.

Despite Lughaidh's comments, standards don't inevitably destroy native dialects. Having a "standard" English. i.e., BRP, didn't destroy the Australian dialect. Australians always distanced themselves from British English and regarded it as something only officials and newscasters spoke.

What really destroyed Australian culture was cultural bombardment by a different major dialect, i.e., American English, through movies and TV. Skilful advertising by the American cultural juggernaut (and contractual obligations that prevent local content from being screened in American contracted cinemas) persuaded people that American culture was superior and cool and really killed the local culture. (The equivalent in Irish is the trendy Urban-dubbed cartoons and music programs broadcast on TG4.)

There _is_ a need for a standard. Again Lughaidh's assertion that native speakers can just use their local dialects is incorrect. Any two speakers of a language whio respect each other eventually develop similar speech patterns to each other over time. In English, all native speakers adjust (tone down) their accents to an intermediate form when speaking in mixed company.

This is just as true in Ireland. There was a program on Irish television a few years ago about a lighthouse keeper from the Aran Islands who went to tend the lighthouse on Tory Island. He said he had to change his Connemara accent and idioms to be understood by the locals and avoid misunderstandings.

What I believe is necessary is a standard in which native speakers can still spell and write their dialects as they speak them. I want to see a standards of spelling and pronunciation based on the living dialects and not the anglicised crap pronunciation and unnatural compound "legalese" words coming from non-native speakers in Dublin (or non-native speakers anywhere).

So, I'm not against a standard but I do think it should be more reflective and respectful of the native Irish dialects.

_________________
Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

I'm not sure Irish speakers change much of their dialect when speaking with someone from elsewhere. I know Gaoth Dobhair speakers tend not to pronounce slender r's as "y" when talking to "strangers" (because this is a feature that may make words hard to recognize sometimes), but apart from that I didn't hear many people who change their dialect, for instance in the radio (Barrscéalta) or in Comhrá.
And personally I only speak Donegal Irish, I spoke it to people from Kerry, Muskerry and Connemara (Bríd and Benjamin and some teachers I had) and Donegal of course ; I never changed anything in my dialect, and they all understood me And they all talked to me in their dialect too...
So obviously, most of the time you don't really need to change your dialect. Maybe when talking to learners, but not to fluent speakers... I mean, if the other persons didn't understand, ok, you can change the way you speak, but since they understand...

_________________
Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne