Well, you won’t find much of a shift in language type—both Old and Modern Irish are highly inflexional, with all traces of previous agglutinative tendencies long lost and the isolating stage still far off.

Syntactically, of course, it has followed the standard path of a language that is losing a large part of its synthetic morphology to analytic constructions: word order has become far less free.


I think you might have to specify more clearly the aim of your project here:

When translating, would you prefer the Modern Irish cognate to the Old Irish word, even when this word is either very rare or has semantically shifted and is no longer the appropriate word to use in this connection? And at what point does this change?

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Not a native speaker.

Always wait for at least three people to agree on a translation, especially if it’s for something permanent.

My translations are usually GU (Ulster Irish), unless CO (Standard Orthography) is requested.

Good points. I should be more clear. Ideally, I should learn both the cognates and the non-cognates... but here is what I mean:

For a translation of the poem, it should be as modern as possible... using whatever words express the closest meaning whether they are cognates or not, and avoiding archaisms and rare words (i.e. any outdated language).

However, if there is a cognate that is rare and outdated or has the wrong meaning but is still in use I would not want it in the translation, but I would certainly appreciate a footnote so I can research that cognates semantic shift and/or journey to obsolescence.

Hope that clarifies!

Although I did address the same problem previously, the quote in question actually came from kokoshneta, not me.

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

Pressing the incorrect 'quote' button is very easy to do as the incorrect one is nearer to the quoted speech than the correct one usually - if that makes sense - in any language!

_________________

Admittedly, they are at the bottom of each post normally and then at the top of each post in reply mode.

_________________
Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

Whoops! Sorry about that misquote.

I didn't realize that was even possible. Another aspect of learning the ropes I guess.


Two questions to keep this thread alive:

1. Has anyone else had a chance to look at verses 9-16 and propose an initial translation?

2. Does anyone want to comment on the word choice and syntax of the first 8, translated by C. Uí Loideáin?

Thanks everyone!

Hello everyone, my previous post on getting an updated Irish version of the 10th century poem "Rop tú mo baile" seemed to hit a dead end, so I am starting a new post to see if I can get some more discussions going.

Here is the short story: I am doing a project for a linguistics course comparing the forms of this Old/Middle Irish poem to that of Modern Irish. For this, I need the Old Irish poem, a recording of it as it would have been spoken, a modern Irish translation of the poem, and a recording of the translation in (preferably) the most standard Irish pronunciation. To date I have the original poem, a recording of the original poem, and half a translation into modern Irish.

So, what I am asking is for people to help me with the modern translation, commenting on what has been produced (suggesting alternate translations?) and filling in what is missing (verses 9-16). Also, at the end when a translation has been had, I would need a native speaker (or very very fluent foreigner) to make a recording of the translation and send me the mp3/wav. I really appreciate anybody and everybody who has already and is willing to help me out with this.

Another thing people could include in "comments" is pointing out any interesting "cognates" they find in the text (i.e. words that have the same or roughly the same form but may have shifted, like baile 'vision' = buile 'madness').

Below is the text. Each number is a stanza in the poem, and OI stands for "Old/Middle Irish", MI for "modern Irish", and ENG for (you guessed it!) "English".

The Text:

1.OI: Rop tú mo baile, a Choimdiu cride: ní ní nech aile acht Rí secht nime.
1.MI:Gura tú m'aisling, a Choimhde chroí: ní ní aon neach eile ach Rí na seacht neamh.
1.ENG: "Be (you) my vision, beloved Lord; none other is aught but the King of the seven heavens.

2.OI: Rop tú mo scrútain i l-ló 's i n-aidche; rop tú ad-chëar im chotlud caidche.
2.MI: Gura tú mo mhachnamh de ló is d'oíche; gura tusa a fheice mé i mo chodladh choíche.
2.ENG: Be (you) my meditation by day and night; may it be you that I behold forever in my sleep.

3.OI: Rop tú mo labra, rop tú mo thuicsiu; rop tussu dam-sa, rob misse duit-siu.
3.MI: Gura tú mo labhra, gura tú no thuiscint; go raibh tusa domsa, go raibh mise duitse.
3.ENG: Be (you) my speech, be (you) my understanding; be (you) for me; may I be yours.

4.OI: Rop tussu m'athair, rob mé do mac-su; rop tussu lem-sa, rob misse lat-su.
4.MI: Gura tusa m'athair gura mé do mhacsa; go raibh tusa liomsa, go raibh mise leatsa.
4.ENG: Be (you) my father; may I be your son. May you be mine; may I be yours.

5. OI: Rop tú mo chathscíath, rop tú mo chlaideb; rop tussu m'ordan, rop tussu m'airer.
5. MI: Gura tú mo sciath chatha, gura tú mo chlaíomh; gura tusa m'onóir, gura tusa m'oirearcas.
5.ENG: Be (you) my battle-shield, be (you) my sword; be (you) my honour, be (you) my delight.

6.OI: Rop tú mo dítiu, rop tú mo daingen; rop tú nom-thocba i n-áentaid n-aingel.
6.MI: Gura tú mo dhídean, gura tú mo dhaingean; go raibh tú do mo thógáil in aontacht na n-aingeal.
6.ENG: Be (you) my shelter, be (you) my stronghold; may you raise me up to the company of the angels.

7.OI: Rop tú cech maithius dom churp, dom anmain; rop tú mo flaithius i n-nim 's i talmain.
7.MI: Gura tú gach maitheas do mo chorp, do m'anam; gura tú mo fhlaitheas ar neamh is ar an talamh.
7.ENG: Be (you) every good to my body and soul; be (you) my kingdom in heaven and earth.

8.OI: Rop tussu t' áenur sainserc mo chride; ní rop nech aile acht Airdrí nime.
8.MI: Gura tusa amháin sainsearc mo chroí; Nára ní aon neach eile ach ard-Rí neimhe.
8.ENG: Be (you) alone my heart's special love; let there be none other except the High-king of heaven.

9.OI: Co talla forum, ré n-dul it láma, mo chuit, mo chotlud, ar méit do gráda.
9.MI:
9.ENG: Before going into thy hands, my sustenance, my sleep, through greatness of love for you.

(8-9, alternate translation: "Be (you) alone my heart's special love; let there be no other, oh High-king of heaven, until (I am) passing into your hands, my sustenance, my sleep, through the greatness of your love.")

10.OI: Rop tussu t' áenur m' urrann úais amra: ní chuinngim daíne ná maíne marba.
10.MI:
10.ENG: Be (you) alone my wonderful portion: I seek not men nor lifeless wealth.

11.OI: Rop amlaid dínsiur cech sel, cech sáegul, mar marb oc brénad, ar t' fégad t' áenur.
11.MI:
11.ENG:To see you alone, my I despise all time, all life, as a stinking corpse.

12.OI: Do serc im anmain, do grád im chride, tabair dam amlaid, a Rí secht nime.
12.MI:
12.ENG: Your love in my soul and in my heart-- grant this to me, O King of the seven heavens.

13.OI: Tabair dam amlaid, a Rí secht nime, do serc im anmain, do grád im chride.
13.MI:
13.ENG: Grant this to me, oh King of the seven heavens, your love in my soul and in my heart.

14.OI: Go Ríg na n-uile rís íar m-búaid léire; ro béo i flaith nime i n-gile gréine
14.MI:
14.ENG: To the king of all may I come after prized practice of devotion; may I be in the kingdom of heaven in the brightness of the sun.

15.OI: A Athair inmain, cluinte mo núall-sa: mithig (mo-núarán!) lasin trúagán trúag-sa.
15.MI:
15.ENG: Beloved father, hear my lamentation: this miserable wretch (alas!) thinks it is time.

16. OI: A Chríst mo chride, cip ed dom-aire, a Flaith na n-uile, rop tú mo baile.
16. MI:
16. ENG: Beloved Christ, what ever befalls me, oh ruler of all, be (you) my vision.

Thanks again everyone!

Hi, jsmolders.

We like to keep all matters relating to the same translation in one topic/thread, otherwise valuable background information, reference material and comments are lost to translators who may not have read the earlier threads.

If your topic scrolls off the first page, try "bumping" it simply by posting BUMP or adding any new comment to the topic.

Please do NOT start any more new topics about this particular translation.

For a good example on how to handle a large project see Mountain_King's An Cath ar Son Wesnoth thread:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=96

This is actually a continuation of a thread on IGTF that ran to 14 pages. You will note that Mountain_King, presents us with small chunks of translation at a time and reminds us if something hasn't been looked at for a while.

I would suggest that you present the verses one or two at a time in this thread/topic until you get translations for all of them. (Readings should be left until the translation is finalised.)

_________________
Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

You've probably already seen this, but if you haven't, you might find it interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be_Thou_My_Vision

_________________
I'm only a learner, so please help me by correcting my mistakes - I won't be offended!

misefein,
Methinks thou hast hit the motherload.

I was gonna say that in Caitríona's translation, you would have to say "Gura thú/thusa i mo . . ."