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PostPosted: Fri 29 Mar 2013 5:59 pm 
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Deghebh wrote:
indeed, I was not calling anyone a NAZI.
What I was complaining about was the method of perpetrating propaganda by quietly setting objectionable truths aside, and renewing the attack from a different angle.

Countless people throughout history have done that--and are doing it today. Yet you specifically chose for your comparison the one who was a well-known Nazi. That's a naked attempt to zhuge up an argumentum ad hominem.

I didn't "quietly set objectionable truths aside". You hadn't presented any--and still haven't. Reply to the factual points of my counterargument, if you can. If not, bí id' thost.


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PostPosted: Fri 29 Mar 2013 6:12 pm 
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Aislingeach wrote:
Unintelligible?!? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

If we are going to be picky about caol le caol, then not 'Gaelainn' but 'Gaoluinn'
from 'Gaol', meaning, like 'Cymru', 'our people', and might even have originally been the same word.
If the 'm' in Cymru were aspirated, and the 'C' eclipsed, they become very similar, differing only in the liquids, which in some languages are confused.
I accept that PUL also makes this error, conflating Gaol with Gael.

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Is mise, le meas, Deġeḃ.
Is Sasanaċ mé.
Tá beagán Gaoluinn agam.
As Béarla:

I see things differently.
I see things other people can't see.
Sometimes what I see is not there.
Some people call me crazy, and some of them are right.


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PostPosted: Fri 29 Mar 2013 6:33 pm 
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Deghebh wrote:
Aislingeach wrote:
Unintelligible?!? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

If we are going to be picky about caol le caol, then not 'Gaelainn' but 'Gaoluinn'
from 'Gaol', meaning, like 'Cymru', 'our people', and might even have originally been the same word.
If the 'm' in Cymru were aspirated, and the 'C' eclipsed, they become very similar, differing only in the liquids, which in some languages are confused.
I accept that PUL also makes this error, conflating Gaol with Gael.


A mutated Cymru sounds like GUM-REE how does that even vaguely sound like "Gaelainn".

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___________________________________________________________

It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

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PostPosted: Fri 29 Mar 2013 6:47 pm 
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Quote:
If we are going to be picky about caol le caol, then not 'Gaelainn' but 'Gaoluinn'
from 'Gaol', meaning, like 'Cymru', 'our people', and might even have originally been the same word.


seafóid. Gaelainn comes from goídelc, just as Gaeilg and Gaeilge. Munster people pronounce ao and ae the same way. No link with "gaol" whatsoever.
Cymru doesn't mean "our people", it means roughly "the fellow countrymen" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales#Etymology_of_Cymru ).
Some say goídel is related to Welsh gwydd, which means savage :)


Quote:
If the 'm' in Cymru were aspirated, and the 'C' eclipsed, they become very similar, differing only in the liquids, which in some languages are confused.


There's no eclipsis in Welsh (dyt ti 'n siarad Cymraeg neu?). Changing letters at random is easy and any word can become any other word.

Quote:
I accept that PUL also makes this error, conflating Gaol with Gael.


that's Munster popular etymology, I guess (gaol and Gael don't sound alike outside Munster) and there's no evidence of that. and what about the ending -ainn / -ge? Where does it come from? Syllables don't appear or disappear magically :)
Etymology is a very complicated science, you can't make conclusions out of mere spelling similarities...

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PostPosted: Fri 29 Mar 2013 6:57 pm 
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Deghebh wrote:
Aislingeach wrote:
Unintelligible?!? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

If we are going to be picky about caol le caol, then not 'Gaelainn' but 'Gaoluinn'

The difference is that both Gaelainn and Gaoluinn are accepted non-CO spellings of the word, but *thiggim is not considered acceptable by anyone. (Thigim is a different matter because there are spoken varieties where the initial is slender.)

Deghebh wrote:
If the 'm' in Cymru were aspirated, and the 'C' eclipsed, they become very similar, differing only in the liquids, which in some languages are confused.

You mean *Gyfru? Ní thuigim. How does that sound any more like caol than Cymru does? They don't have a single sound in common.


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PostPosted: Fri 29 Mar 2013 7:22 pm 
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Location: Bristol UK
Domhnaillín Breac wrote:
Deghebh wrote:
indeed, I was not calling anyone a NAZI.
What I was complaining about was the method of perpetrating propaganda by quietly setting objectionable truths aside, and renewing the attack from a different angle.

Countless people throughout history have done that--and are doing it today. Yet you specifically chose for your comparison the one who was a well-known Nazi. That's a naked attempt to zhuge up an argumentum ad hominem.

I didn't "quietly set objectionable truths aside". You hadn't presented any--and still haven't. Reply to the factual points of my counterargument, if you can. If not, bí id' thost.


I was not ever, anywhere presenting 'truths'.
I was presenting coincidences.
It i NOT for me to prove that the coincidences are more than coincidences.
It is for YOU to PROVE that coincidences is all they are.
That is, I provide a hypothesis, and you destroy it.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to PROVE a hypothesis other than by failing to destroy it, indeed, that is what 'prove' means.
You show that the hypothesis forces a contradiction of itself.
I have shown that there are similarities, and some of these similarities go very deep.
Yes the consonants in Arab are the reverse of those in Hebrew, but the reversal of syllables is not uncommon. It happens frequently in Irish, if it improves euphony.
I do not need to prove that the Sunnite Arabs are Hebrews.
That is an accepted fact, by all who do not pretend that Hebrew = Jew = Hebrew.
The Hebrew and Arab 'alphabets' may not be identical, but there is a huge amount of commonality, and apart from artefacts of style, similar glyphs represent similar sounds.
The correspondence is closer than between English and Cyrillic, or so it seems to me.
Certainly the alphabets are of the same type, and represent sounds of the same type.
In both, Alif is not a vowel, but an opening glottal stop. It would be the beginning character of both Orange and Apple.
Ain in both is a 'voiced H', at least, that is how it was explained to me when I was in Arabia.
So here I am speaking from experience.
Do you accept that, as far as it goes, or do I have to prove that I draw breath?
No, I do not recall where I heard, or read that Brithonic and Godelic Celtic dialects were interintelligible up to AD500, it might even have been in one of the books in my library.
I accept, from what I have seen trying to find that source, that I might be out by 1000 years, for the split is set in the texts I now find, at around 500BC. Still, the tradition I seem to have picked up of the Romans of some degree of interintelligibility around AD0 is a possibility, maybe the merchant specialized in biligualism for reasons of trade. Bilingualism beween Godelic and Brithonic is still relatively simple: easier then English/French.
But that is relatively unimportant.

Surely I do not need to prove that there was contact between Afro-Asian groups, and Indo-European groups about the turn of the era.
Galacia is but a stone's throw from Syria.
The assumption that Galilee was also Celtic does have some traditional support, though it is denied strongly by many, especially, by the Jews.

Surely much of this is common knowledge.

Now is this an acceptable basis, or are my eyes crossed and teas dotted?

_________________
Is mise, le meas, Deġeḃ.
Is Sasanaċ mé.
Tá beagán Gaoluinn agam.
As Béarla:

I see things differently.
I see things other people can't see.
Sometimes what I see is not there.
Some people call me crazy, and some of them are right.


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PostPosted: Fri 29 Mar 2013 7:45 pm 
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Joined: Thu 03 Nov 2011 12:06 am
Posts: 415
Location: Bristol UK
Lughaidh wrote:
Quote:
If we are going to be picky about caol le caol, then not 'Gaelainn' but 'Gaoluinn'
from 'Gaol', meaning, like 'Cymru', 'our people', and might even have originally been the same word.


seafóid. Gaelainn comes from goídelc, just as Gaeilg and Gaeilge. Munster people pronounce ao and ae the same way. No link with "gaol" whatsoever.

That is a generally accepted, but unsupported assumption. The link to Gaol needs to be DISPROVED.
The coincidence accepted by many is strong enough to to imply veracity.
Quote:
Cymru doesn't mean "our people", it means roughly "the fellow countrymen"

You mean that in your own head you cannot see that 'Our people' and 'our fellow countrymen' means exactly the same thing?
Quote:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales#Etymology_of_Cymru ).
Some say goídel is related to Welsh gwydd, which means savage :)


Quote:
If the 'm' in Cymru were aspirated, and the 'C' eclipsed, they become very similar, differing only in the liquids, which in some languages are confused.


There's no eclipsis in Welsh (dyt ti 'n siarad Cymraeg neu?). Changing letters at random is easy and any word can become any other word.

There most definitely is eclipsis. after the preposition 'in', the C of Cymru becomes a G.

So , remembering, excuse póg that Cymru is pronounced Cumrí,
let us eclipse the C to G, and aspirate the m.
Now we have: Guwrí
If we allow confusion between r and l, liquids,
We get: Guwlí
Now that should be close enough to see a relationship.
As I said, the two words do have, essentially, the same meaning.
Quote:

Quote:
I accept that PUL also makes this error, conflating Gaol with Gael.


that's Munster popular etymology, I guess (gaol and Gael don't sound alike outside Munster) and there's no evidence of that. and what about the ending -ainn / -ge? Where does it come from? Syllables don't appear or disappear magically :)
Etymology is a very complicated science, you can't make conclusions out of mere spelling similarities...

_________________
Is mise, le meas, Deġeḃ.
Is Sasanaċ mé.
Tá beagán Gaoluinn agam.
As Béarla:

I see things differently.
I see things other people can't see.
Sometimes what I see is not there.
Some people call me crazy, and some of them are right.


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PostPosted: Fri 29 Mar 2013 7:57 pm 
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Joined: Mon 29 Aug 2011 4:54 pm
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Location: Cill Dara
I am not involving myself in this discussion, but I would like to remind people that when quoting (whether to disagree or agree with someone else's comment) it is important to make it clear who you are quoting as it becomes very confusing. When reading, it becomes complicated when you can see 'quote', but have to trawl back to see who said it. Using the 'quote' button should result in the name appearing with the quote.

I dread the thoughts of swisscheese asking what appears to be an innocuous question again. :dhera:

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Is foghlaimeoir mé. I am a learner. DEFINITELY wait for others to confirm and/or improve.
Beatha teanga í a labhairt.


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PostPosted: Fri 29 Mar 2013 8:05 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
(dyt ti 'n siarad Cymraeg neu?).

HAH! He doesn't even speak Irish!
:rofl:

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Táim ag foghlaim Gaelainn na Mumhan

Tá fáilte roim nach aon cheartú!
I am a learner. Any translations offered are practice and should not be used unless confirmed.


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PostPosted: Fri 29 Mar 2013 8:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri 01 Mar 2013 3:50 pm
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Deghebh wrote:
That is a generally accepted, but unsupported assumption.

In what way is it "unsupported"?

Deghebh wrote:
The link to Gaol needs to be DISPROVED.

You have it exactly backward, I'm afraid.

Deghebh wrote:
The coincidence accepted by many is strong enough to to imply veracity.

Do you not see how you've just completely contradicted yourself?


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