Agreed. The only reason I belabor the point is that I don't want people to buy resources for Scottish Gaelic thinking they're getting resources for Irish (as in my conversation with the shop lady).

Here's an interesting aside...I was speaking with my daughter's doctor the other day about going to Ireland to study Irish. He's heard me mention it before, so he knows it's a distinct language, but he demonstrated another preconception that I've encountered here in the U.S....the perception that the languages of the "British Isles" are all essentially dialects of English! He asked me if Irish "resembled English much at all" (I put that to rest by answering him in Irish that Irish is a Celtic language and English is Germanic)

My choirmaster has done a similar thing in the past, by asking me how to pronounce Welsh hymn tune names (there are quite a few in the Episcopal hymnal). When I've pointed out that I don't speak Welsh, he's replied (only half jokingly) that "I thought you were an expert on the languages of the 'British' Isles." I tell him that the only one I would consider myself to be any kind of an "expert" on is English, and then only on my own West Coast American dialect!

Redwolf

There really does seem to be a perception out there that

A fascinating thread guys...perhaps one way to view this question is to grasp the fact that the terms "Gaelic", "Irish", "Irish Gaelic", "An Ghaoluinn", "An Ghaelainn", " An Ghaeilge" etc, etc, are not immutable. They are not synchronic terms, much less than other words for the most part; they are deeply diachronic and constantly mutating. To attempt to fix the meaning is ultimately impossible, although there have been many different historical aspects of those meanings through time, they will continue to pejorativise, mutate, expand and shrink. The meanings are not however arbitrary, but they do carry more meaning than words alone can convey.

I'll back that up with a concrete example: my mother always says "Gaelic". She's not a speaker (she's from Meath and went to high school in England), but she goes by the Gaelic/Irish form of her Christian name rather than the form on her birth certificate, and was forever saying GRMA to us as kids. She had wanted to move to Barra before starting a family (with my Scottish dad), because she wanted us to grow up bilingual. My grandfather was called "Pádraig" (silent D) and we referred to him invariably as "seanathair". Then there were his brothers Mícheál and Malachai (don't know why the youngest ended up as "Steven" though). Me and every one of my brothers and sisters have an Irish (as in the language) name.

In other words, my mum's never been anti-Irish, but she says Gaelic aaaaaaaaall the time. If she wants to refer to the Scottish language, she'll use the "ah" vowel instead of the "A" vowel, and sometimes she'll add Irish/Scottish beforehand for extra clarity.

(I call it Irish personally, but that's by-the-by...)

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A language belongs to its native speakers, and when you speak it, you are a guest in their homes.
If you are not a good guest, you have no right to complain about receiving poor hospitality.

To be more concrete, that native speakers I met who said "Gaelic" were from Paróiste Múrach
in Corca Dhuibhne, near Feothanach and also one from Béal Átha 'n Ghaorthaidh in Cork.

Also it would have been frequent enough in my grandparents area (the area on the Cavan/Fermanagh border), in phrases like "My father had the Gaelic".

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

When I posted my original question, I had no idea all this would ensue. What an amazing thread to follow. I am continuing to enjoy it. Thoroughly.

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Brand new Irish learner inclined to ask questions. Writer, Words & Worlds of New York, a website about language-learning. http://www.ellenjovin.com

The native speaker that I was referring to in an earlier post is also from Béal Átha an Ghaorthaidh. Maybe it's more common for people of the older generation in that area to refer to the language as Gaelic.

Fine, fine, but a little over-sensitive and aggressive if you ask me. Anyway, that's between you and the poster concerned.


Well, that might have been your intention, but it was not at all the point you actually made. What you say here seems more coherent and reasonable.


Of course. And anyway, it's a beautiful word – I see no reason for avoiding it.


Are you talking to me here, or have my ideas merged with those of other posters in your mind? I haven't “jumped on” anybody – the opposite in fact.


Firstly, you 'stretch' your arguments because you want to create a justification for personally using the word 'Gaelic'. Apparently you need to convince yourself that 'Irish' is a politically-peddled neologism in order to do that. But, Breandán, there's no need to justify yourself. Anyone with a gram of sense can see that 'Gaelic' is as much the name of the language as anything else.

Secondly, opinions aren't polarised in Ireland – only on this forum apparently. In Ireland, most people use the term 'Irish' to describe the language when speaking in English (within and without the Gaeltacht) but only a fool will correct someone who says 'Gaelic'. There are fools everywhere. I think the point I made was that this was a simply a matter of people's habits, within and without Ireland, and the situations you describe seem to be part of the usual tensions between Irish people living in Ireland and those of the diaspora. On this matter, those tensions are largely the result of ignorance.

What I objected to was the repetition here that the term “Irish” has been imposed by officialdom since the formation of the state, with the implication that those of you that use the term 'Gaelic' are somehow warriors keeping the language real. This is what you claimed in your previous post, and this is what I corrected. You seem to have changed your mind somewhat in the meantime.


You keep doing this. You cannot make such a big statement based on a couple of anecdotes. It's absurd, and you know it is. I've already suggested that you read up on it a little rather than just make claims that suit whatever preconceived notions you have. Yes, some Gaeltacht speakers have used, and surely still do, the term 'Gaelic'. Others, including very prominent writers from all the Gaeltachtaí, used “Irish” when writing in English. A lot of native speakers have used both. You say that those emphatic about using 'Irish' tend to be second-language speakers. I would suggest that people that are emphatic or obsessive about either term tend to be second-language speakers. Whatever they are, it's a waste of time!


This has nothing to do with my original comments. Whilst someone can be ignorant on two issues simultaneously (i.e. insisting on the 'correct' name of the language, or 'correcting' native Gaeltacht speech) that doesn't give you the right to conflate those same issues in order to suit preconceptions of your own.

When I referred to your 'paranoia' I was talking about the idea that the use of the word 'Irish' to describe the language was thrust upon the world by officaldom, or governments, or politicians. That is not true and you have not shown it to be the case. The word has been used for centuries, by non-native and native speakers alike. I've never said that it's more correct than anything else, just that it happens to be the word most in use in the Ireland of today (in English obviously), within or without the Gaeltacht.

I can understand how Irish people (or anyone else) correcting your use of the word 'Gaelic' could be infuriating, but rewriting history is no way to vent your frustrations.

Slán,

Domhnall

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Ultach mé agus Gaeilg Uladh a labhraim go measardha maith!

I just want to clarify here my use of the term "political correctness" (hopefully without re-igniting the debate!)

We tend, here in the US, to use the term "politically correct" in a manner that really has nothing to do with "politics" or "official sanction," but rather with "politeness." Typically, when an American says something is "politically correct," we mean we're using a term that is considered more "polite" than other terms we might use (though granted, as hyper-sensitive as our world has gotten, it's often said with a good bit of eye-rolling!)

I haven't seen it recently, but I recall being told on several occasions at the old forum by various people that using "Gaelic" to refer to the language is "insulting," and that the ONLY correct term is "Irish." It's something that people can get pretty darned hot under the collar about, frankly. In fact, back in the day, people often got really incensed at the fact that part of the name of the old forum was "Irish Gaelic." So we all learned to tread carefully around the word "Gaelic," lest we set someone off.

So when I said there is an aura of "political correctness" about the term, that's what I was referring to.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled program, already in progress.

Redwolf

I think that this an area where the people who don't actually live in Ireland really don't seem to have much of a native concept of the terms in a native context...native in this sense as being native to Ireland, monolingual English speakers, native Irish speakers, bilingual speakers etc. the point I made above is that those terms are significantly cultural and quite often are used and interchanged freely, at other times they cannot, but they seldom to my knowledge cause any conflict here. Gaelic football but not Irish football, Irish, Gaelic but Irish Gaelic is never said here as we call Scots' Gaelic well Scots' Gaelic. However, the terms seem to have changed outside of Ireland which is fine too, but if people are willing to adhere to the gaeltachtaí for authority regarding the language, it would make sense that people outside the cultural context of the country would refer to the native people born and bred in Ireland where there doesn't seem to be a problem at all. it is exactly the same argument with "Anamchara". Irish language, Gaelic language, irish music, gaelic poetry, Irish poetry which can mean two different things. Gaelic culture and Irish culture which mean different things and are not interchangeable in this instance. He speaks Gaelic. He speaks Irish. He is Irish/ He is Gaelic mean different things too. If the terms have different meanings within the diaspora but outside of the cultural context of this country then that should be also taken on board but in fairness, a (relatively knowledgeable) native Irishperson's opinion really can't be argued against as we grow up with these terms, on our terms, within a social discourse native to Ireland. Good to see the blood is up with ye

WELL YOU SHOULDN'T BECAUSE THAT'S NOT THE PROPER NAME GRRR ARGH SNARL (joke!!)

Seriously though, it's not. It's "Gaelic" or "Scottish Gaelic", because "Scots" is a completely unrelated language and the term "Scots Gaelic" just confuses absolutely everyone....

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A language belongs to its native speakers, and when you speak it, you are a guest in their homes.
If you are not a good guest, you have no right to complain about receiving poor hospitality.