A French Proverb

Breandán · **Posted:** Wed 05 Oct 2011 10:56 pm

Saoirse wrote:

Breandán wrote:

I have a radical (possibly very Irish) solution to this "problem

So do I - sleep directly on the mattress...... and after a night or two, you'll be grateful for any pillow at all!

Sleep? What's that?

Lughaidh · **Joined:** Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 2436

Quote:

Doux just means ‘pleasant to the senses’, basically—it’s not necessarily the opposite of ‘rough’.

when talking about a pillow I know what "doux" means, French is my mothertongue.

But a pillow doesn't sound "doux", it doesn't taste "doux", it is simply "doux" to your head and to your hands and to your face

franc 91 · **Posted:** Thu 06 Oct 2011 11:54 am

Doux could mean as comforting as an easy conscience

Lughaidh · **Joined:** Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 2436

Pour la conscience, oui, mais pas pour l'oreiller. Quand tu parles d'un oreiller, "doux" veut pas dire confortable, ça veut dire simplement doux

Breandán · **Posted:** Thu 06 Oct 2011 3:44 pm

Lughaidh, I understand the distinction you are making in French.

As far as the translation goes, however, the real question remains does piliúr mín make sense to a native speaker? or would piliúr bog be more natural? or would piliúr bog mín be a better alternative (given such examples as craiceann bog mín)?

Here's an example. The Japanese make a distinction between an older brother 兄 and a younger brother 弟. You cannot say "brother" without choosing one word or the other. So, Japanese people when translating into English or other languages insist on using "older brother" or "younger brother" throughout the translation (because it is culturally important to them and they can't conceive of NOT making the distinction). However, it would be simply weird in some target languages for the word "older" or "younger" to be used where "brother" would suffice.

My point here is, just because the source language makes a distinction between two concepts doesn't mean we must force the distinction onto the target language (though I understand the desire to make the distinction in the source language). It is one reason that real translation should only be done by a native speaker of the target language.

If piliúr mín makes sense on its own to a native speaker, no problem. But I think that final step in the translation process is something only a native speaker can really decide.

Lughaidh · **Joined:** Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 2436

But in a translation you have to keep the meaning. With your Japanese example it's ok, because Japanese is more precise than English. But if you translate "oreiller doux" by "piliúr bog" you simply change the meaning.

Breandán · **Posted:** Thu 06 Oct 2011 5:31 pm

Lughaidh wrote:

BBut if you translate "oreiller doux" by "piliúr bog" you simply change the meaning.

Only if you assume that "doux" maps perfectly to mín and that there is absolutely no semantic overlap between bog and "doux". I don't believe this is necessarily the case.

Lughaidh · **Joined:** Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 2436

Quote:

Only if you assume that "doux" maps perfectly to mín

yes when you're talking about a pillow.

Breandán · **Posted:** Thu 06 Oct 2011 6:25 pm

Lughaidh wrote:

Quote:

Only if you assume that "doux" maps perfectly to mín

yes when you're talking about a pillow.

In the opinion of a non-native speaker of the target language.

Bríd Mhór · **Joined:** Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:29 pm **Posts:** 2996

Oh I don't know. :LOL:

I think a pillow can be both.

mín (smooth)- if the pillow has a silky pillowcase.
mín - if it is not lumpy. (nothing worse than lumpy)

bog (soft) - soft, not hard.

But I think in English "soft" had the double meaning. Not sure.

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