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 Post subject: Re: A French Proverb
PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct 2011 10:56 pm 
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Saoirse wrote:
Breandán wrote:
I have a radical (possibly very Irish) solution to this "problem


So do I - sleep directly on the mattress...... and after a night or two, you'll be grateful for any pillow at all!

Sleep? What's that?

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My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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 Post subject: Re: A French Proverb
PostPosted: Thu 06 Oct 2011 12:09 am 
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Quote:
Doux just means ‘pleasant to the senses’, basically—it’s not necessarily the opposite of ‘rough’.


when talking about a pillow I know what "doux" means, French is my mothertongue. :)
But a pillow doesn't sound "doux", it doesn't taste "doux", it is simply "doux" to your head and to your hands and to your face :D

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 Post subject: Re: A French Proverb
PostPosted: Thu 06 Oct 2011 11:54 am 
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Doux could mean as comforting as an easy conscience


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 Post subject: Re: A French Proverb
PostPosted: Thu 06 Oct 2011 12:02 pm 
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Pour la conscience, oui, mais pas pour l'oreiller. Quand tu parles d'un oreiller, "doux" veut pas dire confortable, ça veut dire simplement doux :)

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 Post subject: Re: A French Proverb
PostPosted: Thu 06 Oct 2011 3:44 pm 
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Lughaidh, I understand the distinction you are making in French.

As far as the translation goes, however, the real question remains does piliúr mín make sense to a native speaker? or would piliúr bog be more natural? or would piliúr bog mín be a better alternative (given such examples as craiceann bog mín)?

Here's an example. The Japanese make a distinction between an older brother 兄 and a younger brother 弟. You cannot say "brother" without choosing one word or the other. So, Japanese people when translating into English or other languages insist on using "older brother" or "younger brother" throughout the translation (because it is culturally important to them and they can't conceive of NOT making the distinction). However, it would be simply weird in some target languages for the word "older" or "younger" to be used where "brother" would suffice.

My point here is, just because the source language makes a distinction between two concepts doesn't mean we must force the distinction onto the target language (though I understand the desire to make the distinction in the source language). It is one reason that real translation should only be done by a native speaker of the target language.

If piliúr mín makes sense on its own to a native speaker, no problem. But I think that final step in the translation process is something only a native speaker can really decide.

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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 Post subject: Re: A French Proverb
PostPosted: Thu 06 Oct 2011 5:11 pm 
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But in a translation you have to keep the meaning. With your Japanese example it's ok, because Japanese is more precise than English. But if you translate "oreiller doux" by "piliúr bog" you simply change the meaning.

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Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
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 Post subject: Re: A French Proverb
PostPosted: Thu 06 Oct 2011 5:31 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
BBut if you translate "oreiller doux" by "piliúr bog" you simply change the meaning.

Only if you assume that "doux" maps perfectly to mín and that there is absolutely no semantic overlap between bog and "doux". I don't believe this is necessarily the case.

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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 Post subject: Re: A French Proverb
PostPosted: Thu 06 Oct 2011 5:57 pm 
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Quote:
Only if you assume that "doux" maps perfectly to mín


yes when you're talking about a pillow.

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
:)


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 Post subject: Re: A French Proverb
PostPosted: Thu 06 Oct 2011 6:25 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
Quote:
Only if you assume that "doux" maps perfectly to mín


yes when you're talking about a pillow.

In the opinion of a non-native speaker of the target language.

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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 Post subject: Re: A French Proverb
PostPosted: Thu 06 Oct 2011 7:16 pm 
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Oh I don't know. :LOL:

I think a pillow can be both.

mín (smooth)- if the pillow has a silky pillowcase.
mín - if it is not lumpy. (nothing worse than lumpy)

bog (soft) - soft, not hard.

But I think in English "soft" had the double meaning. Not sure.

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It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

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