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PostPosted: Tue 11 Oct 2011 3:15 pm 
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I couldn't imagine Iarla Ó Lionáird singing something ungrammatical. So I went looking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSJYebq2_1c
It starts at 2.50 mins.


Ardaigh mé suas ón dtalamh - raise me up from the ground
go dtitim síos san spéir -this line doesn't make sense, is it "dtitim" he's saying?
Ardaigh mé ón dtalamh -raise me from the ground
síos san spéir - down (into) the sky

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It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

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PostPosted: Tue 11 Oct 2011 3:19 pm 
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timgreathouse wrote:
t might help to hear the song itself! I don't know why I didn't post that link here in the first place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSFCSATE98o (The lyrics begin around 3:13.)


Sorry I didn't notice you had given a link.
The sound on that link sounds a bit clearer.

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It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

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PostPosted: Tue 11 Oct 2011 5:39 pm 
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timgreathouse wrote:
kokoshneta wrote:
Edit: Hang on … the Irish there is the original lyrics, I now realise. In that case, it’s just the original lyrics that are bad Irish—nothing new about that, plenty of songs in Irish have shoddy grammar!

You would expect more from an actual Irish singer-songwriter, right?! :)

Well, it's a common mistake to assume that all Irish people can speak Irish (properly). And more than a few claim to be "native" speakers because they were born in Ireland. :rolleyes:

Still, Iarla Ó Lionáird is supposed to be a good speaker. The only thing I can imagine is that Peter Gabriel came to him with these cryptic English words that make for cool imagery but don't make a lot of ordinary sense, and asked Iarla to put them into Irish. Perhaps Iarla then tried to introduce the same "feel" into the Irish. (Of course we could just ask him - I've done weirder things than send an e-mail to the source to find out before.)

I definitely agree with ón instead of an and the d on talamh is a Munster convention, I think.

I'd have said sa spéir, but again it could just be a Munster idiom.

The way I'd say the English given in the original post above, so that it made at least grammatical sense, would be:

Ardaigh suas ar an talamh mé "Raise me up on the ground"
go dtite mé sa spéir "that I may 'fall' in the sky"
Ardaigh ar an talamh mé "Raise me on the ground"
faoin spéir "under the sky"

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Thu 13 Oct 2011 12:58 pm 
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Based on this link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSFCSATE98o

...what does it sound like to all of you like he's actually singing?


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PostPosted: Thu 13 Oct 2011 2:36 pm 
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Breandán wrote:
Ardaigh suas ar an talamh mé "Raise me up on the ground"

Apparently these are spirits that are being raised up from the ground into the sky. Then they become sky spirits or something.


timgreathouse wrote:
Based on this link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSFCSATE98o

...what does it sound like to all of you like he's actually singing?


That's what I tried to give.

The English is supposed to be a translation of the Irish. It's not the Engiish Tim wants but what is said in the youtube video.

_________________
___________________________________________________________

It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

___________________________________________________________


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PostPosted: Thu 13 Oct 2011 4:20 pm 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:
I couldn't imagine Iarla Ó Lionáird singing something ungrammatical. So I went looking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSJYebq2_1c
It starts at 2.50 mins.


Ardaigh mé suas ón dtalamh - raise me up from the ground
go dtitim síos san spéir -this line doesn't make sense, is it "dtitim" he's saying?
Ardaigh mé ón dtalamh -raise me from the ground
síos san spéir - down (into) the sky

It sounds like these ‘spirits’ have their ups and downs reversed, somehow. Partly, at least. So that when they’re lifted up from the earth, they don’t soar into the sky, but fall into it.

Quite odd.

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Not a native speaker.

Always wait for at least three people to agree on a translation, especially if it’s for something permanent.

My translations are usually GU (Ulster Irish), unless CO (Standard Orthography) is requested.


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PostPosted: Thu 13 Oct 2011 4:56 pm 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:
Breandán wrote:
Ardaigh suas ar an talamh mé "Raise me up on the ground"

Apparently these are spirits that are being raised up from the ground into the sky. Then they become sky spirits or something.
timgreathouse wrote:
Based on this link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSFCSATE98o

...what does it sound like to all of you like he's actually singing?

That's what I tried to give.

The English is supposed to be a translation of the Irish. It's not the Engiish Tim wants but what is said in the youtube video.

Oh, yes, sorry, my fault for not explaining. What Bríd has given you is what is on the recording.

What I gave you is how I would have said it had the English been the original and we were translating it into Irish (just for comparison).

@kk - it's not necessarily meant to be logical, it's poetry, all topsy-turvy like the nonsense verse of 19th century children's books. ;)

_________________
Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Thu 13 Oct 2011 6:11 pm 
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Breandán wrote:
What Bríd has given you is what is on the recording.


Can anybody confirm that I heard it correctly?

Ardaigh mé suas ón dtalamh
go dtitim síos san spéir -this line doesn't make sense, is it "dtitim" he's saying?
Ardaigh mé ón dtalamh -raise me from the ground
síos san spéir - down (into) the sky

_________________
___________________________________________________________

It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

___________________________________________________________


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PostPosted: Fri 14 Oct 2011 1:01 am 
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Location: Akron, Ohio, United States
Bríd Mhór wrote:
Breandán wrote:
What Bríd has given you is what is on the recording.


Can anybody confirm that I heard it correctly?

Ardaigh mé suas ón dtalamh
go dtitim síos san spéir -this line doesn't make sense, is it "dtitim" he's saying?
Ardaigh mé ón dtalamh -raise me from the ground
síos san spéir - down (into) the sky


Thanks for clarifying what Bríd shared, Breandán. Just wanted to make sure I understood exactly what was being shared.

If no one in these forums is certain about that second line, then what I'll probably end up doing is getting the third and fourth lines rather than the first and second lines, since there seems to be a greater consensus about those.

Just out of curiosity, what about that line (with "dtitim") doesn't make sense? If you had to take a crack at translating that line into English as is, what would it translate to? Is the uncertainty because the language isn't terribly "common", or is it because it's just very complex? (I find this all really fascinating.)

And then finally... what would all four of the above lines look like in Gaelic script?

Can't thank you all enough for your insight. I'm deeply grateful. The kindness of strangers in forums like these is really wonderful, especially when there's a shared passion for cultural heritage and language.


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PostPosted: Fri 14 Oct 2011 2:15 am 
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timgreathouse wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what about that line (with "dtitim") doesn't make sense? If you had to take a crack at translating that line into English as is, what would it translate to? Is the uncertainty because the language isn't terribly "common", or is it because it's just very complex? (I find this all really fascinating.)

I think it’s just because it sounds so odd. Grammatically, it makes sense, since all the words are in the right place and there aren’t any sentence elements present that couldn’t grammatically be present in this type of sentence—but when you think about it semantically, it breaks down a bit.

… go dtitim síos san spéir means either ‘till I fall down into the sky’ or ‘that I fall down into the sky’. The latter is actually a more accurate translation, since the former would more naturally have the verb in either the future tense or the subjunctive mood in Irish (go dtitfidh mé or go dtite mé), instead of a simple present tense. But I think this is a place where English is taking over, so many native speakers would not find it unnatural anymore to say go dtitim for ‘until I fall’.

Quote:
And then finally... what would all four of the above lines look like in Gaelic script?

Ardaiġ mé suas ón dtalaṁ
go dtitim síos san spéir
Ardaiġ mé ón dtalaṁ
síos san spéir


(This is using the traditional notation where lenited consonants are indicated by putting a dot over them. When writing in the Latin alphabet, and also sometimes when writing in the Gaelic script [though less commonly so in poetry and prose], the lenition is shown by writing an h after the consonant instead.)

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Not a native speaker.

Always wait for at least three people to agree on a translation, especially if it’s for something permanent.

My translations are usually GU (Ulster Irish), unless CO (Standard Orthography) is requested.


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