As I mentioned in my thread on the 2014 Los Angeles Deireadh Seachtaine Gaeltachta (viewtopic.php?f=28&t=3055), one thing I heard on a couple of occasions during that otherwise wonderful weekend was this advice to new learners:

"Avoid the forums. They're poisonous. They'll put you off Irish."

What bothered me is I really couldn't refute that. I didn't feel I could say, as I often did of IGTF back in the day, "Oh, that's the Daltaí forums you're thinking of. I know of a much friendlier community." Because, to be honest, often ILF doesn't really come off as much friendlier or more supportive than Daltaí.

I think it might be good for us to have a discussion about what we might want to do to make new learners feel comfortable here.

Here are some of my thoughts:

1) I think we all could stand to be a little less adamant about our opinions. We all have them, and I'm as guilty as anybody about vociferously defending mine. But I think it would do us some good to be aware that other people are reading what we say, and often forming their impression about the world of Irish speakers from how we treat one another. There are things on which we already know we are going to disagree. How about we just agree to disagree and move on? Or at least be a bit better about saying "This is my opinion," or "as I see it," and other phrases of that sort.

I know we had some real arguments on IGTF too. But that forum was really big and really active...there was plenty for beginners to see without getting involved in the flaming (And with so many posts, it looked to a newcomer like the flame-y ones were just a few people being cranky. Here they're often the busiest posts!) Which brings me to my next thought:

2) It would really be nice to see more of the forum regulars commenting in more of the threads. We've had a bunch of games started here, but it's usually only one or two people playing. It would be nice if more people would jump in and play, or drop a comment or two on some of the great information links posted by people such as Saoirse and franc and Braoin.

One of the strengths of the old IGTF was it was more than an Irish discussion forum...it was a social outlet for many of us, and we often posted about things that weren't strictly related to Irish. I'm not sure that we can recreate that atmosphere here, as so many of us have turned to social media for that outlet, but we could get more involved in the threads we have. And we could be posting more. Got something you want to practice? Start a practice thread! Did you attend an immersion weekend? Tell us about it! Planning a trip to Ireland (or are you Irish and planning to go somewhere another forum member lives?)? Ask for advice! Got a language-related joke or anecdote? Share it!

Another thing that I personally think would help (something I've mentioned before) is getting rid of the instruction for translation seekers to flag their requests by dialect. Used to be we'd all weigh in on translation requests, specifying dialect if needed. It gave the sense that more people were interested in offering translations (and was a good way for learners to start to get a feel for dialect differences). As it is, people don't bother to weigh in, or, I'm guessing, even to open the thread if a dialect other than their own is specified.

I'm also concerned that the dialect question may confuse people who come here for translations. I wonder how many people don't post, because they're not sure what dialect they want? Or perhaps choose "CO" because they assume that a "standard" translation is going to be "more correct"? To be honest, for a lot of these requests there isn't a major dialect difference anyway...can't they be dealt with within the thread?

I'm just throwing ideas out there that I think could make the board both seem more active and more friendly. Which is why my next suggestion might sound a little odd:

3) I don't know if it's feasible in the current format, but one thing I liked about IGTF was that the product reviews were on their own page, and were set up similar to reviews at Amazon.com or TripAdvisor: People posted reviews of the products, positive or negative, but there wasn't any dialogue about them (if someone really disagreed about someone else's evaluation, he or she could certainly say that, but generally people didn't get involved in discussing the things they disliked about a particular product, beyond mentioning them). That kind of format allows people to express their opinion with less chance of starting a flame war. If nothing else, it might be nice to set up a separate forum for product and dictionary reviews (would also have the advantage of making it easier for learners to find them).

Anyway...grist for the mill. My two cents, for whatever they're worth in today's market. I'd love to hear what other people have to say (including newcomers)

Redwolf

I agree. Most people that come here don't even know there are Irish dialects. And the people who do know will ask for it anyhow.

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It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.
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Another thing with this issue...I don't think I'm the only one who doesn't weigh in on dialect-specific posts because we aren't sure our answers will pass the dialect-purity test. I almost always reserve my posts for the threads in which a dialect preference isn't specified.

It was worth trying, but I really think it's more of a hindrance than a help.

Redwolf

From a learner's point of view, I can say that it's always useful to know about dialects and which is which. Even on the on-line dictionaries now they're also offering the three choices of pronunciation, and in the Collins dictionaries for example, the differences are indicated by C, M and U in the same way that you find elsewhere. It's when you don't know about the differences between dialects that learning Irish really does seem to become impossible. Well that's my opinion for what it's worth, anyway.

My concern, though, is that by flagging translation requests in the header, we're a) confusing newbies and b) discouraging comments from people who either haven't specialized in a dialect or haven't specialized in that particular dialect, which slows down the translation process (and may make someone who posts a request think that not many people are interested in helping). Also, I think people might actually learn MORE about dialects in the context of a discussion.

I'm not suggesting we not talk about dialects...just that we stop asking people who come for a one-off translation to put their dialect preferences in the subject header.

Anyway, that's just one suggestion.

Redwolf

I think the dialect preference could just be treated as just that, a preference, doesn't to stop others making contributions .
For example due to where I live I like getting Munster and West Kerry specific information to enable me to understand better what people about me are saying.

e.g. If some one had not told me that "Caill" here is a spoken abbreviation of "Cá Bhfuil" I would not have understood the phrase "Caill cónaí ort" at all.

People could and should still contribute their opinion. They could say, I dont know in Munster Irish but... or Well in Tory they say .....
Its interesting and useful to give the variety's. I understand that having a dialect specific heading might put some people off, but at the same time id like to ensure I get the version I require.

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Bíonn rudaí maithe mall

I don't think they will, or do, however. When you have a limited amount of time, you're not likely to post in a thread where your input isn't needed. I only ever post on (or, for that matter, read) the requests that don't specify a dialect in the header, and judging by the replies to those posts, I'm probably not the only one.

In any case, as I said, this is one suggestion. I'd like to hear more ideas as well...how can we make this place more welcoming, especially to outright beginners, or to folks who maybe are just starting to think about Irish? Because, right now, it's not giving that impression, and it's probably one reason the forum isn't growing as quickly as it might have been hoped to have done, given IGTF's success.

Don't mean to stifle discussion on this topic, but I don't want to see the other thoughts get buried (or other people's suggestions lost) by getting too hung up on this particular one. What do you all think about my other suggestions? Do you have suggestions of your own to offer?

Redwolf

Im not really sure what could make it more inviting, since I don't really find it off putting , even with opinionated discussions, thats a natural part of talking to people. Maybe it would be possible to find out what what things people find most off putting and try addressing them in a FAQ area or something?

I think it would be very hard to make every post as inclusive as possible. There are certain things that due to time constraints or interest would be low on my list of priority's e.g. reading about an Irish weekend in Butte Montana . Where other things like my previous comment would be my main focus. If I don't ask questions of a specific topic im interested in , e.g. Munster Irish, for fear it will alienate people then I don't really feel like I personally am getting what I want from the forum and probably wont take part as much or contribute my questions as frequently.

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Bíonn rudaí maithe mall

I'm not suggesting that people not ask questions about dialects! All I'm suggesting is that we eliminate the request that new posters looking for translations put their dialect of choice in the subject header.

The things that people find off-putting include:

1) The often truly nasty ways in which we address each other when we disagree.

2) People stating their opinions as if they were true and indisputable facts

3) The fact that the discussion that turn nasty are often the ones with the most traffic

4) The fact that other topics of potential interest get short shrift, or are ignored completely.

This forum has gotten the reputation, as Daltaí has for some time, of being a contentious place that learners are better of staying away from. I'm trying to think of ways in which we can make it more inviting for new learners or for people who may wander in for a translation and decide to stick around and learn (as many of us, myself included, did long ago on IGTF). In other words, ways to make the place look more active and lively, and to at least deflect somewhat from the contentious discussions.

Of course, if most people here like it like that, then there's no need to change anything. But don't be surprised that we aren't garnering more regulars, and that teachers are advising new learners who may find such a place off-putting to stay away from here.

Redwolf

Questions about dialects are welcome and will always remain so.
I think Redwolf was only meaning the new users, with little or no Irish, who may only want a once off translation and who may think they have to pick a dialect making a request.

crossed with Redwolf

_________________
___________________________________________________________

It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.
___________________________________________________________