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PostPosted: Wed 02 Nov 2011 11:23 am 
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Can't seem to get the possessive pronouns fixed in my head concerning words beginning with vowels.

How would I write the following correctly?:

My father
Your (sg) father
His father
Her father
Its father
Our father
Your (pl) father
Their father

I've got it pretty clear with consonant words but I'm getting confused when the pronoun is followed by a word beginning with a vowel.

:facepalm: Féabar Mac


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PostPosted: Wed 02 Nov 2011 11:26 am 
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Faber, try them once yourself and then we'll go through them with you.

One thing, though, "its" is "his" or "her" depending on whether it stands for a masculine noun or a feminine one.

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PostPosted: Wed 02 Nov 2011 1:18 pm 
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m'athair
d'athair
a h-athair
a athair

ár n-athair
bhúr athair
a n-athair

I just can't ever get them down and I'm really trying to do this to understand the patterns that seem to be used with "sula" and "sular"


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PostPosted: Wed 02 Nov 2011 1:41 pm 
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faberm wrote:
m'athair
d'athair
a athair "his father"
a hathair "her father"

ár n-athair
bhur n-athair
a n-athair


I just can't ever get them down and I'm really trying to do this to understand the patterns that seem to be used with "sula" and "sular"

You've only got three to work on:

First the easy one - all of the plural forms are n-athair.

Next, you have the his and her back-to-front: a (his) makes no change to a vowel; a (her) appends an h to a vowel. (This is the opposite to the lenition rule for consonants.)


As for sula/sular, unless I've missed something somewhere over the years, it has absolutely nothing to do with the possessive pronouns. The r is appended to sula before regular verbs (verbs that would take níor in the negative, not ).

Make sense yet? If not, keep firing the questions till it does. :ninja: :D

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My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Wed 02 Nov 2011 3:58 pm 
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"Bhur" has no length accent.
Btw I wonder where people say "bhur". As far as I know, people say "ur" in Munster, "a" in Connemara and "mur" in Ulster... Anyway, one more CO silly thing.

Concerning "sula", what patterns do you mean?

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PostPosted: Wed 02 Nov 2011 4:56 pm 
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Quote:
As for sula/sular, unless I've missed something somewhere over the years, it has absolutely nothing to do with the possessive pronouns. The r is appended to sula before regular verbs (verbs that would take níor in the negative, not ).

Correct.

The a in sula is the relative particle a ‘that/which/who’. Sul (or sar) is a kind of noun (I think technically it’s more of a preposition, really, but it’s acts most like a noun) that means ‘beforeness’ or something like that. So the sense is something like ‘(the) beforeness that…’.

It’s like with an áit used to mean ‘where’: when you say ‘where’ in English, it’s a simple conjunction, but áit itself is a noun in Irish, not a conjunction, so it needs something to make a relative clause after it: an áit ar tháinig sí ‘where she came (to/from)’, lit. ‘the place that she came (to/from)’. So when you say sular tháinig sí, you’re very over-literally really saying something like ‘(the) beforeness that she came’ = ‘before she came’.

It’s a fairly convoluted thing to explain, but it does kind of make sense, once you get your head around it.




Breandán wrote:
Next, you have the his and her back-to-front: a (his) makes no change to a vowel; a (her) appends an h to a vowel. (This is the opposite to the lenition rule for consonants.)

Actually, it’s not really the opposite at all, if you just think about it like this (which is also the way the concepts were historically related). Careful, this may be extremely long and go a lot wider than just the topic at hand … please forgive me. :)

A is a possessive adjective. So it’s really a kind of genitive.

Now think about how the definite article in the genitive works:

(Form: effect on initial consonants / effect on initial vowels)
Masculine: lenition / nothing
Feminine: nothing / prefixed h
Plural: eclipsis / prefixed n-

See how this is exactly the same? The masculine a causes lenition to consonants, but nothing to vowels; the feminine a does nothing to consonants, but prefixes h to vowels; and the plural a causes eclipsis on consonants and prefixes n- to vowels.

The article and the possessive adjectives in the third person are actually completely parallel, and there’s good reason for that: in Proto-Irish (i.e., at the time when the mutations were just started to come to life), they were declined very similarly.

Very basically, this is how mutation came about:

  • If a consonant ended up between two vowels, it was weakened. This is very common—it happens in English a bit, too, and it’s very common (and completely parallel) in Spanish as well. Just think about how the v in vaso sounds when you say un vaso [um 'baso], and how it sounds when you say tu vaso [tu 'βaso], where [β] is the IPA sign for a ‘v’ that’s made by just letting air slip through your lips, rather than between your upper teeth and lower lip. This is called ‘lenition’ because the consonant becomes lenis (‘soft’ in Latin—though technically, some of the consonants do other things than just become lenis).
  • If a consonant ended up after a nasal sound (n, m, or ng), the two kind of melted together into a mixture of the two sounds. So unvoiced consonants (p, t, c, f) became voiced (b, d, g, β) (*); and voiced consonants (b, d, g) became continuants (m, n, ng), i.e., they merged with the nasal itself.
  • If a consonant came after an s, it was left alone and nothing happened to it.

(*) At this stage in the Irish language, f was pronounced with air coming through between the lips, not between the upper teeth and lower lip. So the voiced version of f was actually just β. The broad and slender versions of β are what have developed into w and v (both written bh) nowadays.



These very simple general rules are actually all quite common in many languages, particularly the first one.

Now, since most words in Irish at that time ended in either a vowel, an s, or a nasal (a, e, i, o, u, s, n, m, and ng make up a good part of the Irish alphabet), this meant that the initial consonant of a following word would be somehow affected.

So what happened, then, if the second word began with a vowel, not a consonant?

Well, basically speaking: nothing. That is, the second word wasn’t affected, ’cause there was no consonant to affect.

BUT: if the first word ended in vowel + consonant (very common), and the second word started in a consonant, then suddenly the consonant that finishes the first word ends up between two vowels—and voilà, you’ve got the right circumstances for lenition!

So let’s start with words that ended in -s. There were many of these. What happens to an s if it’s between vowels? It gets lenited to ṡ/sh, pronounced as a regular h. You end up with a word that ends in an h, and the following word that starts with a vowel.

Now, not long after this stage, the Irish started getting really sloppy with their pronunciation. They started making unstressed vowels really short and dropping off entire syllables like nobody’s business. And especially final syllables in words were ruthlessly cut off—basically, in order for a final syllable to survive, it had to end in a long vowel plus at least one consonant (that wasn’t a nasal). Everything shorter than that was just dropped entirely, and even the ones that were kept were reduced just a short schwa ([ə]) vowel. But the changes that had happened across the boundaries of words had become permanent already, and they stayed even after the factors that made them possible were gone. That basically leaves us with what we have now: words that just cause some kind of mutation on following words, for no apparent reason.

So if we do a bit of (perhaps not quite correct, but still illustrative) reconstruction, we can make a few scenarios that can show how these things worked. Now remember that Old Irish had case endings. I’ll just use six here: the (regular, thematic) nominative and genitive singular, and the genitive plural, in both masculine and feminine. They had the following endings:

Masculine: Nsg -os / Gsg / Gpl -ōn
Feminine: Nsg / Gsg -ās / Gpl -ōn

As you can see, of these three case endings, only the feminine genitive is long enough to be kept at all (the line over the vowels mean long vowel). All the others are lost completely (though the masculine genitive in was there long enough to make sure that the consonant before it became slender, which is why the genitive singular is now formed in the first declension by making the final consonant slender; an t-arán -> an aráin).

These case endings were used for (many, though not all) nouns, and also for both the article and the possessive adjectives (which were formed with the genitive case endings). So we can reconstruct those more or less like this:

Article
Masculine: N indos / G indī
Feminine: N indā / G indās
Plural: G indōn

Possessive adjectives
Masculine (‘his’): eyī
Feminine (‘her’): eyās
Plural (‘their’): eyōn


If we add some words to that, we can start to see how the results come about. Let’s just use arán ‘bread’, which is nice and simple to reconstruct as a masculine word arānos, and maith ‘good’, which, for the sake of simplicity, we’ll reconstruct here as matios (it was really just matis, but that has different forms, so we’ll pretend it was matios):

Nsg indos arānos matios ‘the good bread’
Gsg indī arānī matiī ‘of the good bread’
Gpl indōn arānōn matiōn ‘of the good breads’

Masculine: eyī arānos matios ‘his good bread’
Feminine: eyās arānos matios ‘her good bread’
Plural: eyōn arānos matios ‘their good bread’

So, what happens first? Well, consonants between vowels are weakened. This applies both inside words and across word boundaries. I’ll use the modern forms with h to indicate weakened consonants. Consonants after nasals are eclipsed here as well, but there aren’t any of those here, so we’ll leave that be.

Nsg indosh arānos mathios ‘the good bread’
Gsg indī arānī mhathiī ‘of the good bread’
Gpl indōn arānon mathiōn ‘of the good breads’

Masculine: eyī arānos mathios ‘his good bread’
Feminine: eyāsh arānos mathios ‘her good bread’
Plural: eyōn arānos mathiōs ‘their good bread’

Next thing that happens is that final syllables start to drop rapidly—but they leave a reminder of their quality (broad/slender) on the consonant before the last vowel before leaving. And if the lost syllable ended in a (now lenited) s or nasal, that consonant was reinterpreted as being the beginning sound of the next word, rather than ending sound of the first. I’ll indicate the slenderisation in the modern Irish way, too, by adding an i before the consonant if it would otherwise be broad, and the re-segmentation of final consonants from first to last word by putting a hyphen after the consonant.

Nsg ind sh-arān maith ‘the good bread’
Gsg ind arāin mhaith ‘of the good bread’
Gpl n(d)o n-arān maith ‘of the good breads’

Masculine: e arān maith ‘his good bread’
Feminine: e sh-arān maith ‘her good bread’
Plural: e n-arān maith ‘their good bread’

Now, both the article and the possessive adjectives don’t have much stress. Actually, they’re about as unstressed as you can get. So finer details are easily lost. (See how indōn weirdly doesn’t give ind above, but rather no(n)? That’s probably the same—in such a short word in an unstressed position, the long vowel probably attracted what little stress the word did have, and the first syllable was lost instead)

As such, it can be hard to tell here whether the possessives were really e or a—it was probably neither, but rather a simple schwa [ə], just as nowadays. The same goes for the article, which was probably just [ənd], rather than really [ind]. For ease of reading, I’ll write them with a henceforth, as in the modern language. Similarly, it can be a bit of a pain pronouncing nd if you’ve got another consonant following it (which you very often had, since most words began with consonants), so the d in the article was lost quite quickly after this, too.

But have a look at the article in the nominative masculine and genitive feminine. It is now ind, and because it used to be indos(h), there’s a lenited s before the following vowel—a sound that at the time must have seemed like it just popped out of nowhere. Before the last syllable was lost, they would still have been aware that this lenited s (which was pronounced like a regular h, most likely) was really an s, because if the following word began with a consonant, there would still be a regular s (it wouldn’t be between vowels, so no weakening). Once the final syllable was lost, though, there was nothing if the following word began with a vowel, so there was no connection to anything. It was just an h now.

And what happens when you have a word that ends in a d + a word that begins in an h? In Irish, the two basically collided, and d+h gave (quite logically) simply a t—remember, Irish dh is a weakened form of d; it has nothing to do with the sound h! So they were basically left with a t that came from out of nowhere.

So when you apply these little spelling changes (and change the lengthening mācrōns for fádás), turn the sh’s into regular h’s, and turn the d+h into a t, you actually get exactly what Modern Irish has:

Nsg an t-arán maith ‘the good bread’
Gsg an aráin mhaith ‘of the good bread’
Gpl na n-arán maith ‘of the good breads’

Masculine: a arán maith ‘his good bread’
Feminine: a h-arán maith ‘her good bread’
Plural: a n-arán maith ‘their good bread’

The only thing that’s changed in the spelling since this is that there’s no longer a hyphen after the h.


But if you look at this together, and remember how things came about, you’ll never more be confused about whether lenition and a prefixed h are the same or not:

  1. Words that cause lenition must originally have ended in a vowel (otherwise the lenited consonant would not have been weakened)
  2. Words that cause eclipsis must originally have ended in a nasal consonant
  3. Words that prefix h to vowels must originally have ended in an s, and that s is actually the h

So if a word causes h to be prefixed to a word, you can tell easily that the same word cannot possibly cause lenition on a similar word. Simple as that.

And if you always remember that those four endings in the singular: -os/-ī | -a/-ās and associate them with mutations, then you’ll easily remember if it’s the masculine or the feminine that causes the lenition or the prefixing.







Phew. Well, that took ages to type out and think through. I hope someone finds it helpful, at least. :)

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Always wait for at least three people to agree on a translation, especially if it’s for something permanent.

My translations are usually GU (Ulster Irish), unless CO (Standard Orthography) is requested.


Last edited by kokoshneta on Wed 02 Nov 2011 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed 02 Nov 2011 10:04 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
"Bhur" has no length accent.
Btw I wonder where people say "bhur". As far as I know, people say "ur" in Munster, "a" in Connemara and "mur" in Ulster... Anyway, one more CO silly thing.

A standard must at some point make compromises. So, what does one do when there are three such disparate forms to accommodate? Usually there is a historic precedent and that is retained as it usually less offensive to all parties than adopting one of the newer forms. If we were forced to adopted one of the above three forms, I'm sure the other two dialects would still complain. :rolleyes:

(By the way, Faber is learning Ulster dialect so you might like to give him the full set.)

@kk - 8O Wow, that is the most long-winded misinterpretation of a comment I've seen to date. :LOL:

I wasn't implying that the appending of h was in any way equivalent or related to lenition, only that when the masculine causes a change the feminine doesn't, and vice versa. ;) You pretty much verified that at the beginning of your reply. :yes:

(But thanks for all the extra info, I'll print it out for slow digestion later. :D )

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My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Wed 02 Nov 2011 10:21 pm 
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I love those "long-winded" explanations, kk! It's like having a free course in the history of the Irish language, and without any exams!

I'm also constantly impressed by your command of English. I know most Scandinavians learn it at an early age, but even though I'm able to speak German and French (and feeble Irish and bits of other languages), I could never attempt something like that in another language. Sometimes you have a particularly Germanic (but not Anglo-Germanic) turn of phrase that reminds me that it isn't your native language, but generally it's better English than many English-speakers have.

Why is it that Scandinavians (and often also the Dutch, I've noticed, but not the Flemish for some reason) do so well with English? I lived in Germany for years and, even though many educated people there are good at English, so very many are not really that good at it, and most other Europeans are much worse. Is it something in the aquavit or the air up there?

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PostPosted: Wed 02 Nov 2011 10:25 pm 
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A Khokoshneta:

Thanks for the info. I'd like to digest this for a couple of days, and I wonder if you would be open to a 15-20 minute phone conversation so I could bounce my questions about your reply. Or, you could make a small mini-lecture on an MP3 file and send it to me. I'd like to hear some of these transitional sounds you describe. I understood the Spanish one well as I am a Spanish speaker.

Slán anois, agus go raibh mile maith agat!
Féabar Mac


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PostPosted: Wed 02 Nov 2011 10:36 pm 
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CaoimhínSF wrote:
I love those "long-winded" explanations, kk! It's like having a free course in the history of the Irish language, and without any exams!

I'm also constantly impressed by your command of English. I know most Scandinavians learn it at an early age, but even though I'm able to speak German and French (and feeble Irish and bits of other languages), I could never attempt something like that in another language. Sometimes you have a particularly Germanic (but not Anglo-Germanic) turn of phrase that reminds me that it isn't your native language, but generally it's better English than many English-speakers have.

Why is it that Scandinavians (and often also the Dutch, I've noticed, but not the Flemish for some reason) do so well with English? I lived in Germany for years and, even though many educated people there are good at English, so very many are not really that good at it, and most other Europeans are much worse. Is it something in the aquavit or the air up there?

I think it came up in another thread but kk had English-speaking neighbours when he was a little kid and so was able to get early immersion others can only get by going to an English-speaking country - i.e., he was raised in a mini-Béarlatacht. :winkgrin:

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My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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