atá ann

Gumbi · **Joined:** Tue 06 Sep 2011 8:09 pm **Posts:** 943

kokoshneta wrote:

Breandán wrote:

Madadh óg atá ann is actually short for Is madadh óg atá ann. "It is a young dog that is there."

This ann is not ‘there’ generically speaking, but a more literal ‘in it (him)’.

In the same way as you can say tá sé ina XYZ, you can also turn this on its head and say XYZ atá ann. Had it been tá sí ina hXYZ or tá siad ina nXYZ, it would have been XYZ atá inti/iontu.

(There is a tendency to use ann instead of inti if the word is only grammatically feminine, but not obviously semantically so. So while many older Ulster speakers would still say leabaidh atá inti, most younger speakers would probably say leabaidh atá ann, because a bed is not semantically any particular gender)

Yes, good point. Simply put, ann = i + é in this case. Am I right in saying that?

franc 91 · **Posted:** Mon 07 Nov 2011 6:07 pm

Isn't there the idea - an idiomatic one I suppose - that you can't just leave the verb hanging on there at the end of a sentence on its own and that 'ann' is there to round it off or to complete it? if you see what I mean?

kokoshneta · **Joined:** Wed 07 Sep 2011 5:05 pm **Posts:** 422

franc 91 wrote:

Isn't there the idea - an idiomatic one I suppose - that you can't just leave the verb hanging on there at the end of a sentence on its own and that 'ann' is there to round it off or to complete it? if you see what I mean?

In a way, yes.

Tá (bí) is inherently (and non-reducibly) divalent, so it requires both a subject and a subject predicate. You can’t leave the subject predicate slot empty, but you can fill it with something that has only a vague meaning, like ann.

Breandán · **Posted:** Mon 07 Nov 2011 7:58 pm

Gumbi wrote:

kokoshneta wrote:

Breandán wrote:

Madadh óg atá ann is actually short for Is madadh óg atá ann. "It is a young dog that is there."

This ann is not ‘there’ generically speaking, but a more literal ‘in it (him)’.

In the same way as you can say tá sé ina XYZ, you can also turn this on its head and say XYZ atá ann. Had it been tá sí ina hXYZ or tá siad ina nXYZ, it would have been XYZ atá inti/iontu.

(There is a tendency to use ann instead of inti if the word is only grammatically feminine, but not obviously semantically so. So while many older Ulster speakers would still say leabaidh atá inti, most younger speakers would probably say leabaidh atá ann, because a bed is not semantically any particular gender)

Yes, good point. Simply put, ann = i + é in this case. Am I right in saying that?

Yes, Gumbi. :yes:

And good point, kk. I was hoping you would come along to clarify that (I did have a passing thought that it would be atá ionam if it were in the first person, but thought I'd better leave it to the experts to explain. :winkgrin:

)

Would the following examples work?

Seanfhear atá ionam.
Fear maith atá ann.
Bean mhaith atá inti.
Foghlaimeoirí dícheallacha atá ionainn.
Seinnteoirí iontacha atá ionaibh.
Leabhair dheasa atá iontu.

kokoshneta · **Joined:** Wed 07 Sep 2011 5:05 pm **Posts:** 422

^ Yup, they all work very well.

A final note, perhaps:

This sentence structure is especially common in Ulster. In Munster, you'd be more likely to hear seanfhear is ea mé, and in Connemara … I think just is seanfhear mé (which is also used in both Ulster and Munster)? But X atá in Y is very common in Ulster.

Breandán · **Posted:** Mon 07 Nov 2011 8:30 pm

kokoshneta wrote:

... and in Connemara … I think just is seanfhear mé ...

No, I think atá ann is pretty common in Connacht as well.

CaoimhínSF · **Joined:** Sun 04 Sep 2011 11:02 pm **Posts:** 1581

Scottish Gaelic uses the copula and ann in similar sentences, just to be sure:

"S e eilean beag a tha ann am Barraigh
Barra is a small island

Gumbi · **Joined:** Tue 06 Sep 2011 8:09 pm **Posts:** 943

Breandán wrote:

kokoshneta wrote:

... and in Connemara … I think just is seanfhear mé ...

No, I think atá ann is pretty common in Connacht as well.

I would say that it's used in Munster too; at least I use it, more than rarely.

Redwolf · **Posted:** Tue 08 Nov 2011 3:32 pm

Breandán wrote:

kokoshneta wrote:

... and in Connemara … I think just is seanfhear mé ...

No, I think atá ann is pretty common in Connacht as well.

I think so as well. In fact, one of my teachers at Oideas Gael, who was from Connemara, told us repeatedly that the "atá i" construction sounded "more fluent," so my guess is that it's quiet common in her neck of the woods.

Redwolf

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