I've never said that either. Fluent means that you speak without stopping all the time to think about the way you'll say what you want to say. You may be fluent and make 10 mistakes in every single sentence.
What I say is that Gaeltacht Irish is the only reference for Modern spoken Irish. Anyway, those who want to improve their Irish spend time in the Gaeltacht, not in big towns. There must be a reason



So if a German guy speaks English with a heavy German accent it's brilliant English in your view?
Well, we'd better stop arguing now, anyway I'll not change my mind and you'll not change yours.

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

Sin é. I do think there is a big difference between a German person speaking English and an Irish person speaking Irish though.

There's no difference, in both cases, it's someone who's learning a language he didn't speak before.

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

I always love it when people try to use statistics to boost their specious arguments, especially people who have a proficiency in Irish of 53%.

2% is a magic number. It is often underestimated:

2% is the proportion of the human brain to overall body weight.

The human heart is much less than 2% (about .3 percent) of overall body weight.

2% is the difference between human DNA and chimpanzee DNA - to ignore Gaeltacht Irish is to try to remove the very part of the language that makes it distinctive.

There's probably actually only about 2% of non-Gaeltacht people who really couldn't handle the natural distinctions between the sounds in Irish if they were shown how to make them in the first place, yet unfortunately those who can't (or can't be bothered) are the most vocal in calling for the dumbing down of the language.

Non-Gaeltacht Irish as standard? - the road to a mindless, heartless Planet of the Apes.

Long live the two percent !

(This post is intended, tongue-in-cheek, to show the dangers of using statistics to kill off an "insignificant" two percent of the language. No offense is intended to those hard-working people who, due to circumstances beyond their own control, have not been placed in a position to actually learn the afore-mentioned distinctions and are simply doing their best to learn and use the language to the best of their ability.)

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

58% actually :p

Im not trying to cast the 2% as insignificant, just point out that Irish is growing quite rapidly outside the Gaeltacht (when compared tothe decline over a hundreds of years), its inevtable that these will out number people from Gaeltacht areas who speak Irish in the future, and this will change the way Irish is spoken with the differnt influences, as it already has in the urban irish you refer too.

I am fundamentally agreeing the Gaeltacht is the best possible place to learn Irish, but if we want Irish to grow its inevitable most of the speakers will not be from the traditional gaeltachtaí, and does that make them less qualified to teach others Irish? No, not in my opinion.

it doesn't make non-Gaeltacht Irish a reference. Think of English: most people who speak English in the world are not native speakers (Chinese, Japanese, German, Spanish people, and so on), they are more numerous than the native speakers themselves. It doesn't mean their English is a reference or is equivalent to native English.



ok, so to you Gaeltacht Irish is better. Dála an scéil théid tú linn



To teach Irish, you need to master its grammar, its pronunciation, its idioms etc. If you don't, you shouldn't teach, I mean, these basics are the least that can be expected from a teacher. Normally, teachers master the language they teach.

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

Yes teachers should be experts, in the same way a maths teacher should,

And i mean the gaeltacht is best place to learn irish because you can experience the language n practice it. Inevitably because of this the Gaeltacht will produce fluent speakers, but i dont think its a prequisite that your from the gaeltacht. I wouldnt reccomend a teacher who didnt know grammar etc but ye are discounting Eoin purely on accent, and im saying of course the irish will evolve as other influences come in but i dont think it makes it anyless irish and i dont consider urban Irish as having lost something, i view it as a living evolving language.

I don’t think anyone’s discounting Eoin, just saying that because his pronunciation is quite far from Gaeltacht Irish (i.e., what we all agree is the ideal reference), he would have done better to get a Gaeltacht native speaker to do the recordings. As I understand it, he devised the rest of the course himself (grammar, progression, structure, etc.), and nobody’s discounting his efforts there—having someone whose pronunciation closely reflects an ideal reference do the recordings would just have improved the course overall.

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Not a native speaker.

Always wait for at least three people to agree on a translation, especially if it’s for something permanent.

My translations are usually GU (Ulster Irish), unless CO (Standard Orthography) is requested.

In that case I think we all agree then that fluent speakers, including pronunciation are the best sources for 'proper' Irish, I just can't help seeing it as telling someone to go learn English in southern England rather than North because they speak 'proper' English as your hear on TV, yes there are differences with the position of Irish in Ireland as a minority language but people like Eoin (i dont know his exact circumstance) would have been brought up by their parents, teachers etc to speak Irish and of course that Irish will be different to Irish hundreds of KM away + the added fact its probable they mixed with people speaking different dialects and they have more influences from the English language around them. I just feel that this Irish is equally as valid. English has vastly changed in England over the centuries as settlers have brought their languages (germanic, scandinavian, latin languages etc), grammar and accents together to create modern English, English also lost many grammatical features as it evolved. I just don't see English influence on Irish as a particularly bad thing, it's inevitable. I would advise anyone to learn fluent Irish, and to me that is Irish that is spoken fluently by someone with an Irish accent (as 'anglicised' as it may be). I just think that there will be more and more speakers like Eoin and it will become the norm as it evolves. Irish already is losing some of those pronunciation features even in the Gaeltacht, the use of the rolled 'r' springs to mind, I just think its evolution, perhaps even revolution. And it's not something I worry about when it comes to speaking the language, all these influences will come together and Irish will change and will evolve, and it wont be through adult learners, it will be primarily through children. So to someone, especially abroad, I'd say go ahead and learn fluent Irish, you will still have your American accent etc dont worry about speaking like your from Conamara, you will always sound like your from America, bar the odd person who is able to mimic an accent.

Anyway, maybe time to put this to bed as all the opinions are out there and we are never going to agree. I think the fundamental thing we agree in the Gaeltacht is a wonderful sping which great Irish flows from, but I want to embrace the wonderful Irish coming out of Gaelscoileanna nationwide too.

@ Ben.... Yes, I am very very fortunate to have Máire as a teacher. I have chosen to learn Irish at each step with as much influence from Ulster as I can receive, and she is an absolutely professional Ulster Irish teacher. I began with the Tús Maith course which was made by people in Derry and that was my first influence in the language and culture so it feels the most natural to me. I also have a friend who is a priest on Toraigh and I plan to see him next summer when I hope to return for 3 weeks to Donegal. We spent much time in conversation this summer at Oideas Gael in Gleann Fhinne. I converse with a guy in Maynooth each Sunday via Skype and he speaks straight Galltacht Irish, but he was willing to speak with me when I could only say "hello" etc. He's a real blessing.

Most students from Ireland I speak with speak Galltacht Irish so I've just had to learn to understand them (and it is a stretch for me I must admit), and I alter my own speaking a bit when I talk to them as I desire to communicate and not confuse, but when I speak with Máire I pretty must stick to Ulster construction (an example: I only say "Thig liom" (I can), "An dtiocadh leat" (could you) etc (I don't know how to say that any other way) when talking to Ulster people, and I only say "Is feidir liom" when I'm talking with Galltacht speakers). None of my comments were meant to diminish Gaeltacht Irish or I wouldn't be going up there to learn, etc.... I just was trying to comment on what I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears. My comment is objective and not subjective. I had a teacher at Oideas Gael that was born into Irish and brought up through Irish medium in Dublin and he sounds just like Eoin. I had the most trouble understanding him because all my other teachers were northern. It is just a reality happening in Ireland whether we observers think it's bad or good. That was my comment.

You all have often heard me promote Tús Maith as a starting point to beginners here on the forum. It is clearly northern leaning Irish, but Macgabhann introduces the students to how things are said all over. This is very helpful. Folks have told me he's not a native speaker, but he's a brilliant educator (think he has a Phd in Education) that started learning Irish in his late teens and raised his children totally in Irish (they are now some of the teachers at Oideas Gael). His material gets you headed in the direction where you can work with someone like Máire, and you can go to Oideas Gael and the rest of Donegal and hear an accent that is familiar to you, and is like mother's milk to your ears. I had VERY HIGH comprehension of what native northern speakers were saying to me. He just programs your mind that way and I appreciate that. Most Texans and Americans will never be able to get to Donegal to study, so this is a great springboard into the direction of Gaelteacht Ulster Irish. One limit is that it is almost impossible for me to understand much Connemara Irish at this point, and I do find it beautiful to my ears. I suppose I will understand it as my fluency grows. I hope so anyway. It has sounds and richness I can't even begin to mimic. I am frustrated however that it sounds like such a foreign language to me.

My point is .... I just want to be able to understand ANYONE trying to speak Irish (including Galltacht). I will continue to mimic and learn Ulster Irish and sounds as that is my personal choice, but I will temper it to be understood by anyone anywhere in the Gaeilge speaking world. My path isn't for everyone, but it seems to be working (although painfully slow) for me. Eoin's course seems like a good choice for folks wanting to choose a different but equally valid path than my own.


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